Glory of the Seas 1869 by rwiederrich - FINISHED - 1/96 - medium clipper

[rwiederrich]

This image can be interpreted many ways,  I chose to use wood painted white, those McKay used apparently iron on his Flying Fish clipper on her carriage house.  
 

Im simply making an artistic move.  
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

55 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

This image can be interpreted many ways,  I chose to use wood painted white, those McKay used apparently iron on his Flying Fish clipper on her carriage house.  
 

Im simply making an artistic move.  
 

Rob

Rob, no critique intended, I was merely saying what I was observing after you directed me to that area of this amazing picture. Another fascination I have with this image is the apparent height of the Forecastle. The only logical way I can reconcile this much higher bulkhead is if the main deck had remained more level instead of following the molded level. Confusing to me at least.

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, no critique intended, I was merely saying what I was observing after you directed me to that area of this amazing picture. Another fascination I have with this image is the apparent height of the Forecastle. The only logical way I can reconcile this much higher bulkhead is if the main deck had remained more level instead of following the molded level. Confusing to me at least.

Yeah, from the photos it appears the forecastle is at the same height as the long cabin, but Mike’s drawings show otherwise.  
 

Perception is everything and how much distortion are we really looking through and at?  
 

There is always something we either missed or perceived incorrectly.  
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

7 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Yeah, from the photos it appears the forecastle is at the same height as the long cabin, but Mike’s drawings show otherwise.  
 

Perception is everything and how much distortion are we really looking through and at?  
 

There is always something we either missed or perceived incorrectly.  
 

Rob

Rob, then again, if the forecastle stanchions are 30" high, they could be about double the height of the lower forecastle bulkhead. That's if we figure those bulkheads are slightly beyond the sailor on his knees. 

By the way, did you ever get the book "Story of a Ship, the Benjamin F Packard" that I had sent to you? It should have arrived around the 11th.

Don't worry about the cost, consider it a gift. I just want to make sure it arrived safely.

[rwiederrich]

54 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, then again, if the forecastle stanchions are 30" high, they could be about double the height of the lower forecastle bulkhead. That's if we figure those bulkheads are slightly beyond the sailor on his knees. 

By the way, did you ever get the book "Story of a Ship, the Benjamin F Packard" that I had sent to you? It should have arrived around the 11th.

Don't worry about the cost, consider it a gift. I just want to make sure it arrived safely.

Oh my gosh……..I’m so sorry, yes I did receive it.   It is amazing.  I so got caught up in my build I dropped the ball.  
 

please forgive me for forgetting.   I’m a puts.
 

It is great that the discussion focuses on this highly overlooked item.  We can agree this is a fluid element  
 

I can’t find the bell you spoke of.  
 

Rob 

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Oh my gosh……..I’m so sorry, yes I did receive it.   It is amazing.  I so got caught up in my build I dropped the ball.  
 

please forgive me for forgetting.   I’m a puts.
 

It is great that the discussion focuses on this highly overlooked item.  We can agree this is a fluid element  
 

I can’t find the bell you spoke of.  
 

Rob 

Rob, Whew, that's a relief about the book. I felt so bad when you said they were all sold out. It's an amazing Pictorial of the Packard. 

If you enlarge the Boy's House picture looking forward, there's a distinct half shape of a ship's bell behind the foremast. It would be an awkward place to put one but I can't figure out what else it could be.

Edited October 24, 2021 by ClipperFan
Grammar correction

[rwiederrich]

12 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, Whew, that's a relief about the book. I felt so bad when you said they were all sold out. It's an amazing Pictorial of the Packard. 

If you enlarge the Boy's House picture looking forward, there's a distinct half shape of a ship's bell behind the foremast. It would be an awkward place to put one but I can't figure out what else it could be.

The shadow is confusing, but it is not only confusing it is also incorrectly placed. You have to go to the rooftop to sound the bell.  Doesn’t seam right. 
 

Rob

Edited October 24, 2021 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

8 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

The shadow is confusing, but it is not only confusing it is also incorrectly placed. You have to go to the rooftop to sound the bell. 
 

Rob

Rob, I agree but you have to also admit it sure has the shape of a bell 

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, I agree but you have to also admit it sure has the shape of a bell 

By looking at the other image of the captain, you can see hardware affixed to the main stay.   Could be that stuff. 
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

By looking at the other image of the captain, you can see hardware affixed to the main stay.   Could be that stuff. 
 

Rob

Rob, I agree, it's just uncanny how much the one peculiar image resembles a bell. It would be a major league inconvenience to mount a bell in such a place! 🙂

[rwiederrich]

5 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, I agree, it's just uncanny how much the one peculiar image resembles a bell. It would be a major league inconvenience to mount a bell in such a place! 🙂

Riiight, that is why we apply a little deductive reasoning.    To help us when nothing else points the way.  
One reason this build is so fun. 
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

Riiight, that is why we apply a little deductive reasoning.    To help us when nothing else points the way.  
One reason this build is so fun. 
 

Rob

Rob, then again, it could just be a "spare bell".... you know, just in case one's lost or gets broken..... 😉

[ClipperFan]

Well, I guess we've just about "wrung" this topic out now.....

[rwiederrich]

24 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Well, I guess we've just about "wrung" this topic out now.....

🥴

[ClipperFan]

Rob, Vladimir back to more salient issues. This amazing and clear Stern image of Glory docked in Alaska gives us an even better opportunity than ever before to accurize Glory's dimensions from the Poop deck to the Stern quarters. Knowing accurate measurements of the rear Carriage House we can calculate the width of the walkways alongside. Utilizing a 15' width for the Wheelhouse we can also estimate quite accurately the width of the Stern, which has proven to be a genuine representation of McKay's "curvilinear" Stern section. I'm working on an accurate scale sketch of this section. It's too late to revise either of your models but it will help us all recognize the authentic appearance of a McKay Clipper for future reference. 

[BANYAN]

Hi Rob, Clipper and others involved - your discussion re the bell had me intrigued and I had to look back several times to find the photo.  Sorry to reopen the 'wrung discussion'.

A bell abaft the foremast is not unusual - fog bell which was usually the ship's bell, and a smaller 'watch' bell was sometimes fitted near the conning position (usually near the binnacle, but sometimes abaft the mizen mast).   The height is a bit odd, although it would depend on where the fore lifebuoy sentry would be stationed as he probably also had responsibility for sounding the bell in fog?  So the height would be such that he had easy access to it.

 

However, while at first look I also thought it was a bell, if you look at what might be a linear shadow on the bell running oblique and to the left aft, the angle is all wrong when viewed with other shadows, and to my eye appears to sharply defined to be a shadow.  It also appears wrongly placed to be a bright reflection.   Could that dark area be a gap between block sides?  The general shape appears to me that it could be the front and back face of a 'monkey' block, with possibly a darker line running away upward at an angle almost in line with the linear shadow, from the top lug/eye (where the bell crown/fitting point would be)?  I may be seeing things but might be worth another look?

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited October 25, 2021 by BANYAN

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

5 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, Vladimir back to more salient issues. This amazing and clear Stern image of Glory docked in Alaska gives us an even better opportunity than ever before to accurize Glory's dimensions from the Poop deck to the Stern quarters. Knowing accurate measurements of the rear Carriage House we can calculate the width of the walkways alongside. Utilizing a 15' width for the Wheelhouse we can also estimate quite accurately the width of the Stern, which has proven to be a genuine representation of McKay's "curvilinear" Stern section. I'm working on an accurate scale sketch of this section. It's too late to revise either of your models but it will help us all recognize the authentic appearance of a McKay Clipper for future reference. 

Rich, this photo can be measured from left to right but from top to bottom it is useless dont forget that. its extremely distorted from top botom vise perspective it would give you only very false picture. but for whats you measure its ok i think. speaking of stern , nothing is late, im proud of mine  its 95 percent of this picture - accurate depiction of this flat. nothing to be reworked.  or? I am now reworking top rail to male it properly thin so it will look exactly as on the photo. i will post pic later  

Edited October 25, 2021 by Vladimir_Wairoa
add

[rwiederrich]

7 hours ago, BANYAN said:

Hi Rob, Clipper and others involved - your discussion re the bell had me intrigued and I had to look back several times to find the photo.  Sorry to reopen the 'wrung discussion'.

A bell abaft the foremast is not unusual - fog bell which was usually the ship's bell, and a smaller 'watch' bell was sometimes fitted near the conning position (usually near the binnacle, but sometimes abaft the mizen mast).   The height is a bit odd, although it would depend on where the fore lifebuoy sentry would be stationed as he probably also had responsibility for sounding the bell in fog?  So the height would be such that he had easy access to it.

 

However, while at first look I also thought it was a bell, if you look at what might be a linear shadow on the bell running oblique and to the left aft, the angle is all wrong when viewed with other shadows, and to my eye appears to sharply defined to be a shadow.  It also appears wrongly placed to be a bright reflection.   Could that dark area be a gap between block sides?  The general shape appears to me that it could be the front and back face of a 'monkey' block, with possibly a darker line running away upward at an angle almost in line with the linear shadow, from the top lug/eye (where the bell crown/fitting point would be)?  I may be seeing things but might be worth another look?

 

cheers

 

Pat

I took several looks and compared it with the photo of the boy on the boy house roof.  These images were probably taken at the same time...during the same shoot.

This is evidenced by the same stack of wood and ropes on the main cabin roof...they are in the same position and latitude.  Now further evaluation shows that the captain's head is roughly the same level as the keel of the boat stored on the roof...skipping over to the other image you can deductively make out the location of the boats keel and it is clear the *Object* is far to high on the mast to be a useful place for any kind of bell.

 

Plus...you would have to lean over or be on the edge of the roof (During inclement weather) to ring it.  Very unpractical.  Then when the stay sails are furled at the base of the stay, they would just be in the way.  Further impracticality. 

 

Continued deduction by way of understanding the nature of what goes on at the foremast foot...you will know that the main topmast stay is most likely the shadow that Pat references as the oblique shadow.  There are the blocks used for the stay sail downhauls...there are even a large group of *Hanks* visible on the downhaul.  

 

Notice the presence of secured rope in the image hanging from either the stay or a belay point (Most likely) for securing the stowed sail.

 

There are far too many working components of the rigging in both of these images that might be the distorted reflection/shadows that we are viewing.

In all likelihood the bell is stationed at the bow around the forecastle or aft by the wheel or aft cabin...generally where the watch would make his announcement notification on the bell for watch changes, sounding and the like. 

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

8 hours ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

Rich, this photo can be measured from left to right but from top to bottom it is useless dont forget that. its extremely distorted from top botom vise perspective it would give you only very false picture. but for whats you measure its ok i think. speaking of stern , nothing is late, im proud of mine  its 95 percent of this picture - accurate depiction of this flat. nothing to be reworked.  or? I am now reworking top rail to male it properly thin so it will look exactly as on the photo. i will post pic later  

Vladimir, the discovery I'm referring to is the vessel's width, which accommodates consistent walkways on either side of her rear house. In addition, the Wheelhouse, now established to be 15' across, looks smaller in the photo, reflecting a wider Stern than previously thought. Since we didn't get this particular image until both of your projects were well under way, nobody can be faulted for this oversight. It does however highlight how new discoveries help us to revise our thinking about McKay's vessels. This all points to an even more robust Stern Poop deck than previously thought before. Surprisingly it's still all very graceful when plotted out, as you'll see in my next sketch.

Edited October 25, 2021 by ClipperFan
additional information

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Vladimir, the discovery I'm referring to is the vessel's width, which accommodates consistent walkways on either side of her rear house. In addition, the Wheelhouse, now established to be 15' across, looks smaller in the photo, reflecting a wider Stern than previously thought. Since we didn't get this particular image until both of your projects were well under way, nobody can be faulted for this oversight. It does however highlight how new discoveries help us to revise our thinking about McKay's vessels. This all points to an even more robust Stern Poop deck than previously thought before. Surprisingly it's still all very graceful when plotted out, as you'll see in my next sketch.

Best part about these *new* observations/revelations is that they have little impact on the overall replication of what we have thusly accomplished.

However, anyone who comes behind us will,(as suspected), have greater information.  We are kinda like Mike when he began this entire adventure, so long ago.  He was the trend setter...the tip of the spear, the point man....then we came along an rewrote the entire interpretation, that he spent decades formulating, and solidifying in  2 publications.

 

Any minor dimensional questions can be attributed to model shipwright impressions and translation applications.

 

Personally, I think our hull corrections and my structural representations outweigh any additional modifications future modelers might include in their representations.

 

I would love to see your drawing of said corrections based upon known dimensions and your projected modifications....☺️

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

4 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Best part about these *new* observations/revelations is that they have little impact on the overall replication of what we have thusly accomplished.

However, anyone who comes behind us will,(as suspected), have greater information.  We are kinda like Mike when he began this entire adventure, so long ago.  He was the trend setter...the tip of the spear, the point man....then we came along an rewrote the entire interpretation, that he spent decades formulating, and solidifying in  2 publications.

 

Any minor dimensional questions can be attributed to model shipwright impressions and translation applications.

 

Personally, I think our hull corrections and my structural representations outweigh any additional modifications future modelers might include in their representations.

 

I would love to see your drawing of said corrections based upon known dimensions and your projected modifications....☺️

 

Rob

Rob, I will post it as soon as I can. I'm double checking dimensions of the Starboard walkway which appear to be between 4 to 5 feet wide. That's important because the Alaskan photo clearly reveals that these walkways remain consistent as the Rear Carriage House bends about 1/2 way of its 45 foot length to accomodate narrowing of the Hull. It's an important discovery, since even the "Flying Fish" model doesn't replicate this sensible feature. 

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

Lets hope folks there wont be same neglect or no interest for modeling her as there was of real ship itself in her late years.  i hope we are not last ones   McKay surely doesnt deserve that  

[rwiederrich]

Been a little slow these last couple of days.  Doing yard work cleaning up after a wind storm, just been busy with other things.

 

I'm mapping out my lower mast structures so this work will take some time and there will be little to post about until I Mill down the right wood I want to use.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

20 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Been a little slow these last couple of days.  Doing yard work cleaning up after a wind storm, just been busy with other things.

 

I'm mapping out my lower mast structures so this work will take some time and there will be little to post about until I Mill down the right wood I want to use.

 

Rob

Rob, when you account for the lower height of Glory's three masts, you'll want to use a deeper "backbone" depth than the 7' in the 1970s crossection illustration. McKay's Clipper "Sovereign of the Seas" had a depth of 11 feet. Using the method elaborated in "Stag Hound" for Glory, I arrived at a similar figure. When I have a chance, I'll elaborate on how I arrived at that conclusion. Suffice it to say, you wouldn't want to short change the height of your masts by 4 feet.

[rwiederrich]

17 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, when you account for the lower height of Glory's three masts, you'll want to use a deeper "backbone" depth than the 7' in the 1970s crossection illustration. McKay's Clipper "Sovereign of the Seas" had a depth of 11 feet. Using the method elaborated in "Stag Hound" for Glory, I arrived at a similar figure. When I have a chance, I'll elaborate on how I arrived at that conclusion. Suffice it to say, you wouldn't want to short change the height of your masts by 4 feet.

Rich, is that the mast length from deck to top of doubling, or mast cap?   Mike gives those dimensions in his second book.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

 

Some of my calculations for the masts have led me to an impasse.

 

My original idea of cutting out the corner sections of a square piece of stock, turned out to be  far less them acceptable.  The ratio of blade depth for all passes to remove the material produced many unwanted *overcuts*.  The depth of the blade and distance from the fence for this scale proved to be more then I wanted to re-engineer my equipment for.

 

So I opted for an alternative.  For the Fore and Main masts I will use the 1/8" scale, (Mizzen, 3/32") and then cut several pieces and glue them together to form the mast.

I'll begin with cutting a main piece 3/4" wide by 1/4" wide, Length does not matter at this juncture. Then I will cut 2 pieces 1/4" square.

Then by gluing the 2 1/4" pieces to the sides of the 3/4" piece, I will have created the needed *cross* that will be the basis of the mast.

 

Then for the head stock portion, I will center punch and screw and glue a shank for the chuck to grab...and the other end I will simply center punch and press into the bearing tipped spindle in the tail stock of the lathe.

 

Then all I need do is turn the mast to the appropriate scale diameter.  

 

I will then follow my original plan of cutting shims to fit at the appropriate distances in the recesses for the band supports. I'll mark those with pencil on the lathe at the scale 3ft increments.

 

I'll follow that up with a coat of white paint in the recesses and then I'll replace the mast back in the lathe and do a final soft sanding to remove excess wood from the shims(Rounding them) and any paint on the exposed outer wood of the mast.  This portion will be varnished or Tung oiled. 

 

I probably should have followed this method to begin with, but I wanted to see if the other method could be accomplished on my table saw.

I'll probably turn a foot of composite glued mast on the lathe for each mast, so I have ample material left on each end to fit snugly in the hull and have enough material to carve the square portion of the lower mast that is within the doubling with the top mast.

 

Once the proper length is established, I will band them. (That will be fun). then everything will get a coat of matt finish.

 

Rob 

Edited October 27, 2021 by rwiederrich

[BANYAN]

Interesting concept, look forward to seeing the results Rob.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[ClipperFan]

Banyan, one of the traits I most admire about Rob is his self deprecating style. He's matter of factly describing quite a complicated modeling technique which I can barely but not quite comprehend. This is further proof that Rob is a consummate professional in his miniature replicating technique despite minimizing of his obvious considerable talents.

[ClipperFan]

Rob, here's Duncan MacLean's highly detailed description of McKay's first Extreme Clipper "Stag Hound" which summarizes she was nine feet through the 'back bone.' Since it's

unlikely the author took all of these measurements personally, it's more likely he received them from the Shipyard directly.  To simplify it, I've just listed structures and their dimensions:

 

New Clipper "Stag Hound"

Boston Daily Atlas, Dec 21, 1850

 

Keel depth: 46" (3'10")

Floor Timbers on Keel: molded 14"-16"

3 Depths Midship Keelsons: 42" (3'6")

Hold Stanchions: 10" square, kneed to beams above and Keelson below, so that their lower arms form almost a rider along the top of the Keelson. Including their depth and the molding of the floor timbers, she is nine feet through "the back bone."

46"+14"-16"+42"+10"= 112" -114" or 9'4"-9'6"

Since masts can't be stepped to hold stanchions, we can subtract them out ending with 8'6" to 8'8" upon which masts would be mounted. Most likely 8'8" for fore and main masts and 8'6" for the mizzen.

 

Using this same methodical approach, we can accurately estimate the "back bone" of "GLORY of the SEAS."

 

New Clipper "Glory of the Seas"

Boston Daily Atlas 1869

 

Keel molded: 24"

Depth of Shoe: 5"

Floor Timbers molded: 20"

3 Midship Keelsons: 16" square 

3 Tiers of Thick Work on the Bilge: 15"

24"+5"+20"+48"+45"= 142" Making "GLORY of the SEAS" 11'10" through the "back bone". That's very similar to "Sovereign of the Seas" which was described as being eleven feet through "the back bone" and which wasn't nearly as full a design as Glory, which had the flattest floor of any McKay Clipper Ship.. 

 

Since 29" is the Keel and Shoe, that means there's 9'5" depth which the masts are stepped to. I'm confident this dimension will assist Rob and Vladimir in making sure their mast heights are soundly accurate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by ClipperFan
additional information

[rwiederrich]

I began the process of making my composite mast. 
 

First it must be clearly made known…..these masts are all experimental.    If I like the end result , I’ll keep-em, if not I’ll remake them 

 

I began by gluing sections together and throwing them on the lathe. Next I added the spacers and finished sanded on the lathe.  
 

Then I painted the recesses and again back on the lathe for final sanding.   
 

I the put on some Danish oil and that is where I am currently.  Still need to add the bands.  
These things are a lot of work.    Not sure of the final look till banding.  Remember these are not very big, just over 3/8” in diameter, or 7/16”ish.  
 

Rob