Glory of the Seas 1869 by rwiederrich - FINISHED - 1/96 - medium clipper

[ClipperFan]

Rob, in case you or anyone else wants to order prints of the images I've shared, they're from The Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, MA. Not the Museum of Science which I incorrectly identified before.

https://collections.mfa.org/objects/38517/half-working-model-of-great-republic;jsessionid=E871F707D700A8817F818CEE87BF1FC9

[rwiederrich]

Thank you very much for that information....I'm for sure looking into it......thanks.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

12 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, from the same Boston Museum of Science comes this original Builder's Half Hull Model of the "Great Republic."

I was under the impression that Donald destroyed all his models..so there is no *actual* real builders models, but only replications.  The Great Republic was an *extreme* model....even though she was nearly twice the size of the next vessel...   This model is evidence(If truly correct) that she was a magnificent vessel....that I understand the Lightning was similarly modeled after.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

Rob, in Richard McKay's terrific book "Famous Sailing Ships and their Builder Donald McKay" there are 2 images of a Builder's Model Half Hull of Clipper "Staghound" which the modeler, a relative of Donald says he rescued from a terrible fate in the McKay Farmouse. The modeler states it was the sole surviving example.

However, the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston refers to the 2 examples I've shared as being originals too. They're located in the George P Putnam Hall and descriptions detail their provenance. Sadly, in his poverty and despair Donald McKay is said to have used all his others as firewood to heat his Farmhouse during cold Massachusetts winters, in the later days of his life. What a tragic loss to all humanity....

[Keith Black]

59 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Sadly, in his poverty and despair Donald McKay is said to have used all his others as firewood to heat his Farmhouse during cold Massachusetts winters

What a sad commentary about the last years of such a talented individual. There should have been and should always be a safety net for the artist of whatever discipline that share our world. 

[ClipperFan]

Keith, you're so right. Ironically due also to how poorly sailors were compensated, who manned these magnificent Clipper Ships, it was extremely difficult to man these vessels. Webb's monster Clipper "Challenge" had the misfortune of being scheduled to sail just after McKay's "Flying Cloud." Since the 'cream of the crop' were all sucked up to staff her, the Master of "Challenge" (then the largest sailing Merchant Vessel in the World, just edging out "Flying Cloud") had to dig up 'the dregs' to find enough crew to sail. Results were totally predictable. "Flying Cloud" went on to shatter sailing records in her inaugural voyage while "Challenge" had an arduously long Hell trip.

To heighten poor Donald McKay's tragic circumstances was the fact that he himself was generous to a fault when it came to how he treated all the employees of his own Ship Building Community, which he viewed as members of his own family...

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, in Richard McKay's terrific book "Famous Sailing Ships and their Builder Donald McKay" there are 2 images of a Builder's Model Half Hull of Clipper "Staghound" which the modeler, a relative of Donald says he rescued from a terrible fate in the McKay Farmouse. The modeler states it was the sole surviving example.

However, the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston refers to the 2 examples I've shared as being originals too. They're located in the George P Putnam Hall and descriptions detail their provenance. Sadly, in his poverty and despair Donald McKay is said to have used all his others as firewood to heat his Farmhouse during cold Massachusetts winters, in the later days of his life. What a tragic loss to all humanity....

Yes I have several copies of that book and I recall the images of the half models.  I felt as you, that Donald's later years were sad ones and the loss to all his collection is just as sad.

I can only defer to the honesty and integrity of the Boston museum of fine arts as to their collections provenancial integrity.   I just wish a half model of credibility of Glory would come forward.

 

Thanks for your fine input.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Keith, you're so right. Ironically due also to how poorly sailors were compensated, who manned these magnificent Clipper Ships, it was extremely difficult to man these vessels. Webb's monster Clipper "Challenge" had the misfortune of being scheduled to sail just after McKay's "Flying Cloud." Since the 'cream of the crop' were all sucked up to staff her, the Master of "Challenge" (then the largest sailing Merchant Vessel in the World, just edging out "Flying Cloud") had to dig up 'the dregs' to find enough crew to sail. Results were totally predictable. "Flying Cloud" went on to shatter sailing records in her inaugural voyage while "Challenge" had an arduously long Hell trip.

To heighten poor Donald McKay's tragic circumstances was the fact that he himself was generous to a fault when it came to how he treated all the employees of his own Ship Building Community, which he viewed as members of his own family...

This is so true...how would of Webb's fine Clipper performed if handled by a competent 1st mate and crack crew. The Captains integrity and ability  was without question.  Donald expended enormous amounts of time and money providing for his shipwrights and general laborers.  Providing the state of the art equipment and facilities.  His financial woes can be compared to the housing catastrophe of 07~09.  People literally lost their homes and businesses..solely because  the market collapsed...NOT because they were foolish wasteful spenders.  Donald failed to diversify, as Webb did...and stuck to his guns...producing wonderful clippers long after their real usefulness was gone and moved onto fuller bodied slow carriers and Steam ships.  Donald was a man for the *ERA* and he did it well...from 1848~1858 and then again briefly from 1867~1869 when Glory of the Seas was created.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

A more complete image of Glory at her launch. A blue flag with white stars flies on a post mounted to her Bowsprit. Another large American flag flies at her Stern. The detail is so crisp in this scene, I can count the strakes around her Starboard loading port. I count 9 strakes above the copper line, just below the port, 4 next to the port and an additional 7 just above and below the covering board of her Main Rail. I think I read that each of these strakes were 12" wide. That would mean the port is 9' above the waterline, 4' tall and 7' below the main rail covering board. That would mean the vessel is 20' from the waterline to the main deck. Since below the waterline is even deeper, it's beginning to look like "Glory of the Seas" is approximately 54' from keel to top of the monkey rail. This would be at the lowest level of her 7' sheer, meaning the Bow would be above 60'. A very substantial vessel indeed.

[ClipperFan]

Section 1 progress of the ledger size pages, "Glory of the Seas" Bow and her Grecian Goddess "Athene" figurehead. Getting these dimensions as accurate as possible should allow the rest of the recreation to come together more smoothly. Her underwater Hull is based on the 1869 launch image, the 1907 dockside blowup and my best effort to stay true to both.

[Keith Black]

Question, somewhere I read that the dolphin striker was hung 90 degrees to the water line but more often times than not I see modelers hang the dolphin striker at 90 degrees to the bowsprit. Which is correct way or is there a correct way? 

[druxey]

With all due respect, the bow flare-out to the bowsprit seems less extreme in the launch photo than your drawing. Something more like:

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

This log is fascinating guys.

[ClipperFan]

Druxey,

dimensions for the Bow have been taken from page 1 Ledger enlargement. However, blurry images make it difficult but not impossible to determine. I get your point though, good catch! Reexamining the tip of the Monkey Rail (section above Main Rail into which Upper Bowsprit enters. Taking a plum line from there, it appears that the Bow Line aligns with the scrollwork where Goddess Athene's left foot rests. I've scaled the Bow back accordingly.

Keith Black,

when Dolphin Strikers aren't rigged, as seen in Glory's launch photo, they hang straight down. Fully rigged, they tend to match the angle of the Bowsprit Cap, as seen in Glory's 1907 image.

Rob,

Unless you're deviously planning to sell my drawings (which I'm not accusing you of and doubt you would do) not only do you have my permission, I'm working as quickly as possible to facilitate the building pace you're used to. My goal is to achieve the most true to life recreation of McKay's Clippers, which are my favorite. To me, as I've mentioned before, the Mjelde Hull blueprint suffers from uncorrected serious perspective distortion. Mainly in the Bow, where the shortcomings are most dramatic. Compare the 1907 broadside to the 1869 fitting out and it's immediately apparent. In the fitting out photo, which is magnificent, the Broadside view is from her Starboard Stern. Since the Bow is at greatest distance from the camera, it's 'foreshortened' more profoundly. Glory's figurehead is 7 1/2 feet. It's publicized in a magazine. The carved arch she mounts to is just slightly longer, as can be seen in multiple sources. That means the two combined arch out at an angle of 15 feet. The Mjelde drawing just doesn't reflect that. Her Naval Hoods as seen in her launch, the San Francisco dockside and 1900's close up of her lovely figurehead all show a close dimensional width to the inside of the Main Rail above. To me the Mjelde image makes this to fat and way too stubby, robbing Glory of this beautifully coordinated combination of nautical devices. In my view, Donald McKay was a master of "form follows function" but he also did this with a sense of beauty and nautical poetry.

[Keith Black]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

they hang straight down. Fully rigged, they tend to match the angle of the Bowsprit Cap

Clipper, I don't want to belabor the point but as you can see from the photo of the Tennessee the DS is 90 degrees to the waterline. I don't know if there is a correct way or if it was just a "go tighten her boys" and to heck with what angle it hung? I've seen photos of other ships (mainly US Navy) where the DS is at 90 to the waterline. Maybe a US Navy thing at the time? I was just curious, back to being a silent observer, thank you....

[ClipperFan]

Keith Black,

Positions of dolphin strikers vary with the vessels involved. The US Navy vessel pictured definitely has a 90 degree d.s. just like you describe. British Clipper "Cutty Sark" has an iron d.s. which is integral to her Bowsprit Cap. "Glory of the Seas" on the other hand, has a d.s. which is shackled to the Cap above and adjusts according to rigging. This 1907 image clearly shows it's not at a 90 degree angle.

Druxey, 

I was too dismissive of your observation. Taking a closer look shows that the outermost edge of the Bow aligns with the section of Cutwater which meets the lower carved arch molding. I'm revising the sketch again to get this area right.

[rwiederrich]

8 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Keith Black,

Positions of dolphin strikers vary with the vessels involved. The US Navy vessel pictured definitely has a 90 degree d.s. just like you describe. British Clipper "Cutty Sark" has an iron d.s. which is integral to her Bowsprit Cap. "Glory of the Seas" on the other hand, has a d.s. which is shackled to the Cap above and adjusts according to rigging. This 1907 image clearly shows it's not at a 90 degree angle.

Druxey, 

I was too dismissive of your observation. Taking a closer look shows that the outermost edge of the Bow aligns with the section of Cutwater which meets the lower carved arch molding. I'm revising the sketch again to get this area right.

This has been wonderful exchange.  I agree with Druxey and your final conclusion.  All these slight changes are what are going to make her drawings so much more accurate and authentic.

[ClipperFan]

I discovered this in a California digital archive, which has a fairly detailed Port view of Glory's Figurehead. From an article in a newspaper 'San Francisco Call' Sept 12, 1911 describing "Transformation of the Clipper Glory of the Seas" comes a spooky tale, actually a tragedy, about the live model for Glory's figurehead. Her name was Elizabeth le Forgue and she was one of the loveliest girls of East Boston. She was betrothed to a sailor named John Martin, who had promised to marry her upon return of his first voyage to 'Frisco in '69. Apparently he never returned.

Either she drowned herself or was lost overboard from one of her father's fishing boats. When the sea gave up her dead, she was missing an arm. The tale goes that the same day she was lost, Glory of the Seas ran into some high seas and afterward her figurehead was missing an arm too. Sailors, being a superstitious lot, tried in vain to replace that arm but never succeeded. If you look at her figurehead today, you can tell her replacement arm is not of the same quality as the original.

[ClipperFan]

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=SFC19110924.2.81.7&e=-------en--20--1--txt-txIN--------1

 link to the newspaper article. The description of Glory's tragic figurehead model is in the last far right column near the very bottom. It's spooky.

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

I discovered this in a California digital archive, which has a fairly detailed Port view of Glory's Figurehead. From an article in a newspaper 'San Francisco Call' Sept 12, 1911 describing "Transformation of the Clipper Glory of the Seas" comes a spooky tale, actually a tragedy, about the live model for Glory's figurehead. Her name was Elizabeth le Forgue and she was one of the loveliest girls of East Boston. She was betrothed to a sailor named John Martin, who had promised to marry her upon return of his first voyage to 'Frisco in '69. Apparently he never returned.

Either she drowned herself or was lost overboard from one of her father's fishing boats. When the sea gave up her dead, she was missing an arm. The tale goes that the same day she was lost, Glory of the Seas ran into some high seas and afterward her figurehead was missing an arm too. Sailors, being a superstitious lot, tried in vain to replace that arm but never succeeded. If you look at her figurehead today, you can tell her replacement arm is not of the same quality as the original.

You are so funny....I gathered my collection of this data in my data base and was going to sent it to you...but you beat me to it.  Just this morning I was putting it all together to post.  WOW!   The story is an amazing one isn't it?  Brings some new dimension to what we are delving into doesn't it.  

I'm so glad your own research has brought this information to you.  I've possessed it for years, ever since I began my own research into Glory some 11 years ago. 

 

Good sleuthing.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=SFC19110924.2.81.7&e=-------en--20--1--txt-txIN--------1

 link to the newspaper article. The description of Glory's tragic figurehead model is in the last far right column near the very bottom. It's spooky.

It provides a good(for reference sake) side view of the iron band connecting to the hood and the inclination of the bowsprit.

I have a full copy of the article...short its image for good reference material.

 

Rob

[druxey]

In the article the builder is Donald McCabe, not McKay!

[ClipperFan]

Rob

no lie. I began working on Glory of the Seas's accurate Hull and Sail plan in late May 2009. I know because it was the eve of our 24th Anniversary. My wife found a lovely place, the Inn at Stongington, a little shoreline town in CT which just happens to have the Capt Nate B Palmer House museum. Back then (has it really been 11 years?) There were no clear images of Glory besides those published in Michael Mjelde's two excellent books. The 1907 San Pedro pic wasn't available until 2017. So it's truly been a long strange trip... I have saved the article on Glory's transformation as a pdf file and can share it, including the image of her figurehead.

Druxey,

Misspelling Donald McKay's last name in the article shows how little attention was given to his contribution to American Maritime History. Sad how shabbily Glory was treated in her later years. Perhaps if Americans of that era had been more aware of the significance of McKay's contributions, his last Clipper wouldn't have met such an ignominious and fiery end...

 

[rwiederrich]

10 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob

no lie. I began working on Glory of the Seas's accurate Hull and Sail plan in late May 2009. I know because it was the eve of our 24th Anniversary. My wife found a lovely place, the Inn at Stongington, a little shoreline town in CT which just happens to have the Capt Nate B Palmer House museum. Back then (has it really been 11 years?) There were no clear images of Glory besides those published in Michael Mjelde's two excellent books. The 1907 San Pedro pic wasn't available until 2017. So it's truly been a long strange trip... I have saved the article on Glory's transformation as a pdf file and can share it, including the image of her figurehead.

Druxey,

Misspelling Donald McKay's last name in the article shows how little attention was given to his contribution to American Maritime History. Sad how shabbily Glory was treated in her later years. Perhaps if Americans of that era had been more aware of the significance of McKay's contributions, his last Clipper wouldn't have met such an ignominious and fiery end...

 

What a coincidence.  We began our Glory research roughly around the same time...funny.  (We've been married 36 years)  I came to the same conclusion about Donald McKay's name and the articles poor handling of it.  However, from gathering the old timers recollection of certain ship details...I had to conclude, for myself, that it must have been the writer of the article who had some how misremembered or misheard.  Coupling that with, the attestation of the producers of the reprint recognizing that in the scanning there might be details lost to reproduction.  Or...as you pointed out...little attention was given to Donald's contribution to American Maritime history.  Still, either way, it is still sloppy journalism.

 

Thanks you for your own contribution and passion for the subject.  There are very few of us.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

On ‎8‎/‎30‎/‎2020 at 10:14 AM, Keith Black said:

Clipper, I don't want to belabor the point but as you can see from the photo of the Tennessee the DS is 90 degrees to the waterline. I don't know if there is a correct way or if it was just a "go tighten her boys" and to heck with what angle it hung? I've seen photos of other ships (mainly US Navy) where the DS is at 90 to the waterline. Maybe a US Navy thing at the time? I was just curious, back to being a silent observer, thank you....

Good observation Keith.  In most cases it is a Navy thing.  Keeping the martingale parallel with the masts was probably a matter of symmetry and finds its roots in some antiquated Navy tradition.  However the stresses on the martingale and the off balance of the tension of the stays would make this arrangement less efficient.  However making her at a right angle to the bowsprit would be less symmetrical and thus less Navy.

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

Peg and I observed our 35th June 1st. Exchanged lovely cards and sentiment. Nothing fancy. Just grateful to both be alive and healthy...

Any Glory or other McKay ship images you feel like sharing is fine with me. I'm about half way through Glory's Hull, just before her Main Mast position. Her Prow is still somewhat a work in progress.

I remember reading in one of the appendices of Richard McKay's book that, in a final aborted attempt to develop more European interest in his Shipbuilding capabilities, Donald Trump did dozens, maybe hundreds of sketches for an anticipated and as of yet still unpublished book. All of these documents now reside in the Peabody Museum. Just one image is the twin hulls of Star of Empire & Chariot of Fame. Someday I want to contact the Museum and see what interest they may have in finally making Donald McKays works available to the public.

 

 

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

Peg and I observed our 35th June 1st. Exchanged lovely cards and sentiment. Nothing fancy. Just grateful to both be alive and healthy...

Any Glory or other McKay ship images you feel like sharing is fine with me. I'm about half way through Glory's Hull, just before her Main Mast position. Her Prow is still somewhat a work in progress.

I remember reading in one of the appendices of Richard McKay's book that, in a final aborted attempt to develop more European interest in his Shipbuilding capabilities, Donald Trump did dozens, maybe hundreds of sketches for an anticipated and as of yet still unpublished book. All of these documents now reside in the Peabody Museum. Just one image is the twin hulls of Star of Empire & Chariot of Fame. Someday I want to contact the Museum and see what interest they may have in finally making Donald McKays works available to the public.

 

 

I wasn't aware Donald Trump drew images of clippers......

I would be elated if such a collection was made known and available to the public.  Your prowess and attention to these Peabody matters is well received.

Do you possess the publications, *Speed under Sail* and *Greyhounds of the Sea*?  They, I believe have drawings of some of McKay's hulls.  I'll post anything I find relevant.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

Since I've only seen a few illustrations published of Donald McKay's work, I can only surmise what other details he might have done too. I do remember that the particular appendix does refer to him preparing this book for publication in expectations of doing a more extensive trip beyond England to other European nations, in order to promote his Shipyard and drum up business. As was sadly usual in his challenging life, some setback occured that ended his plans for this fascinating planned trip. It's either speculation or memory, I believe it might have been the illness and death of his wife.

I have both of the books you mentioned and a few others. One has a real nice publication of the "Monster Clipper Donald Mc'Kay." Apparently when she was in drydock, English Shipwrights were so impressed with her that they took precise "lines" of her, which are published in this book. It might be McLean's "Fast Sailing Ships."

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

Latest progress update on full scale "GLORY of the SEAS" recreation. Due to light wash out, the Mizzen Mast section is very light. It's basically down to one last section The Stern now. 

Druxey,

Thank you for your sharp eyes, as you can see, the revised Prow is much closer to where you indicated it should be. 

Another surprising development, is that at this size, the sheer is so subdued that much of the Hull is actually a straight line. The sheer is there but much more subdued than I first anticipated.

[rwiederrich]

On 8/31/2020 at 12:47 PM, druxey said:

In the article the builder is Donald McCabe, not McKay!

The restorers claim that there are some scanning errors. I saw that years ago and even have some errors with my scanned book for Great Republic