Contact Adhesive for second planking.

[DaveBaxt]

I will be attempting second layer of planking for the very first time and in Walnut 0.5mm x 4mm and wonder if anyone has tried this and if there are any draw backs. I have found a video of a guy doing exactly this and looks to have made a decent job of it. Let me know what you guys think. He also uses a similar procedure for his deck planks.He makes it look easy . However............. Sorry if this has been discussed in the past.

 

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Edited December 31, 2020 by DaveBaxt

[Keithbrad80]

Personally i would recommend a different method of planking. 

 

First, contact adhesive is used for things like shoes, its really rubbery and dries basically instantly, its not very good stuff for ship modeling. Second, generally when planking the goal is to lay the planks horizontal so they all line up evenly across the hull. This gives the model strength and so the only way to make everything fit is to taper them. If you notice in the video you posted he lays down a bunch of planks and fills them in? The end result in this video looks nice, but a lighter wood is going to show these flaws, on top of that if you have space like that and try to fill them in with other pieces you will never get as tight a fit as if you had just tapered them. His model looks very nice, but the method of tapering planks is an important skill when planking the next model, so learning it now would provide better results on your next build. 

 

What I would do, I would use PVA (white glue or wood glue) and hold the planks in place with my finger while they set, but first i would line the hull and get ready for planking the hull using tapered planks. I would figure out how much to taper them and place them one at a time until i am happy with the results. 

 

There are tons of resources on this site and books in print that you can read through to get a good understanding of planking the second layer of planks, which can make a huge difference in the over all look of the model. Good luck!

 

Bradley 

[DaveBaxt]

39 minutes ago, Keithbrad80 said:

Personally i would recommend a different method of planking. 

 

First, contact adhesive is used for things like shoes, its really rubbery and dries basically instantly, its not very good stuff for ship modeling. Second, generally when planking the goal is to lay the planks horizontal so they all line up evenly across the hull. This gives the model strength and so the only way to make everything fit is to taper them. If you notice in the video you posted he lays down a bunch of planks and fills them in? The end result in this video looks nice, but a lighter wood is going to show these flaws, on top of that if you have space like that and try to fill them in with other pieces you will never get as tight a fit as if you had just tapered them. His model looks very nice, but the method of tapering planks is an important skill when planking the next model, so learning it now would provide better results on your next build. 

 

What I would do, I would use PVA (white glue or wood glue) and hold the planks in place with my finger while they set, but first i would line the hull and get ready for planking the hull using tapered planks. I would figure out how much to taper them and place them one at a time until i am happy with the results. 

 

There are tons of resources on this site and books in print that you can read through to get a good understanding of planking the second layer of planks, which can make a huge difference in the over all look of the model. Good luck!

 

Bradley 

Bradley .Thanks for that reply and I thought there would be a few reasons why this method is not normally used. I have managed to carry out the first layer of planks by the method you use ie lining off the hull and tapering the planks, hopefully I will get similar results using exactly the same method on the second layer. In your experience would you also use the same glue on the deck planks? Best regards Dave 

Edited December 31, 2020 by DaveBaxt

[Keithbrad80]

15 minutes ago, DaveBaxt said:

In your experience would you also use the same glue on the deck planks?

IMO you can (almost) never go wrong with PVA wood glue. Most people don’t like using CA but sometimes it’s a necessity, I use it some times when planking the decks but most of the time a little bit of wood glue and maybe a minute of finger pressure on that plank should do it, just enough for the glue to start to set. 
 

Bradley

[DaveBaxt]

1 hour ago, Keithbrad80 said:

IMO you can (almost) never go wrong with PVA wood glue. Most people don’t like using CA but sometimes it’s a necessity, I use it some times when planking the decks but most of the time a little bit of wood glue and maybe a minute of finger pressure on that plank should do it, just enough for the glue to start to set. 
 

Bradley

Bradley .I will definately give the PVA glue a go. I used speed bond which is a PVA glue which drys clear I did find that if I use it sparingly it does start to hold quite quickly and wipes off if I over do it a bit. Thanks again for your advice.

[CD M Santiago]

Definitely daunting considering the adhesive but clearly start with a scrap piece. Also score the underside with pencil. I’m testing occre brand 

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  Some contact cements may not pass "the test of time", depending on the right amount being used with the right procedures (e.g., temperature, humidity, film layer thickness on each surface, correct partial cure before assembly, assembly technique, the absence of air bubbles, clamping pressure, time under pressure, etc,) ...  While there are many examples of professionally produced laminated products lasting at least 50 years or more without delamination, there are also examples where cheaper products have failed - like in the 'builder grade' countertop in our kitchen that started failing 15 years after installation (we were the 3rd owners who bought the house 13 years after construction).  We lived with it until we could afford to have the kitchen remodeled 10 years later, and wisely chose fused quartz counter tops.   

Edited 11 hours ago by Snug Harbor Johnny

[RossR]

25 minutes ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

  Most contact cements may not pass "the test of time" ...

I see this comment from time to time.   Contact cement is used for laminate countertops, and I have lived in houses with 50 year old countertops that show no sign of the glue letting go.    
 

it does have very specific applications and certainly isn’t useful for most modeling applications.   If you have 100% surface contact, especially when one layer is as thin as Occre’s second layer of planking or two flat surfaces like decking on a plywood base, I think it is an good product to use.  
 

You do need to use it properly.   Apply it to both pieces and wait for it to dry to a point of being slightly tacky when you touch it.  When the two tacky pieces make contact you get a very strong bond.  
 

 

[wefalck]

On most contact cements it is written that the amount pressure applied is important, not its duration. This is why cobblers hammer down soles etc. and C-clamps are used. Both are not so good propositions on a delicate model ship's hull ... 

[François de Saint Nazaire]

Hello,

 

You could use Quick Adhesive Wood Glue; it offers a quick grip in 2 minutes. My  brand is SADER

[RossR]

2 hours ago, wefalck said:

the amount pressure applied is important, not its duration.

I use a round wooden handle from a pin pusher.  I am not positive, but I think for laminate countertops tops a roller would be used, but no clamps that I am aware of.   I can’t speak to what cobblers do, no knowledge on that subject.  
 

Occre specifies the use of contact cement in their models for the second planking and has good video instruction on its use in the series of videos for HMS Beagle.  
 

I know a lot of kits would have thicker material for the second layer of planking, I am not sure if contact cement is best in those models, but if you building an Occre model with two layers of planking I would recommend following Occre’s instructions.   

[James H]

I used to use it for second planking when I first started building, and built many ships, both large and small, with it.

 

The glue I used was Dunlop Thixofix. It absolutely stunk and you had to have a good method to apply so it didn't leave any excess or blobs.

[oakheart]

6 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

Most contact cements may not pass "the test of time"

I had some high quality wood veneer work done 50 years ago and it's still sound, they used standard Evostick contact.

YMMV with other brands

 

Tim

[RossR]

53 minutes ago, James H said:

It absolutely stunk

Are you referring to the smell or performance.   It definitely has a strong odor and good ventilation is advisable.   
 

curious if your planking has held up over the years?   

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

Dear fellow builders,  I regret having used the word "most" when I posted about the possible failure of using contact cement on ship model planking.  I've experienced product failure more than once, yet do not have statistical evidence and/or test results to indicate what percentage of failures might occur.  So in fairness, I've edited my original post to change 'most' to "some", of which I can personally attest.  Please forgive my oversight and premature assessment based on anecdotal evidence.  The revised post is pasted below:

 

  Some contact cements may not pass "the test of time", depending on the right amount being used with the right procedures (e.g., temperature, humidity, film layer thickness on each surface, correct partial cure before assembly, assembly technique, the absence of air bubbles, clamping pressure, time under pressure, etc,) ...  While there are many examples of professionally produced laminated products lasting at least 50 years or more without delamination, there are also examples where cheaper products have failed - like in the 'builder grade' countertop in our kitchen that started failing 15 years after installation (we were the 3rd owners who bought the house 13 years after construction).  We lived with it until we could afford to have the kitchen remodeled 10 years later, and wisely chose fused quartz counter tops.   

[catopower]

In my own experience, contact cement has worked fine for attaching wood veneer planking, and I think it will continue to do so.

 

If working with thicker planking, I would use PVA and a little CA glue. But, there is very little hold necessary for veneer planking. It's not like a countertop or shoe that has to stand up to decades of abuse. Never seen contact cement bond fail. But, that's just me.

 

 

[wefalck]

Perhaps it is helpful to recall how the different types of cement and glue work.

 

Contact cements work due to physico-chemical interactions with the materials and by replacing the air between two parts so that the ambient pressure presses the parts together. For this reason, contact cement is mainly used for cementing together two non-porous materials or a non-porous material to a porous one (think laminate to wood). Because of this, contact cement works best with large surfaces (think again of laminating or veneering). The functioning of the bonds depends thus on the cement remaining slightly 'rubbery' and once all the solvent has evaporated, the bond may fail. Also, contact cement bonds are not very resistant against 'peeling' action.

 

Thinking about these mechanisms and properties, cementing narrow planks that may still be 'springy' may not be an ideal area of application for contact cement, apart from the technical difficulties of applying a uniform film and high pressure.

 

PVA on the other hand works in a completely different way. It forms only weak physico-chemical interactions with non-porous surfaces and therefore is not really suited to bond such materials to each other or to wood. PVA essentially keys into the wood pores of the parts to be glued together and forms a mechanical link between them ones cured. Because of this mechanical link by the cured resin the bond is resistant against peeling and it is typically the wood that fails and not the bond per se. This makes it a good glue, when there is some strain on parts, such as from 'springy' planks - if the parts have been clamped together until the PVA has fully cured.