Cutty Sark by rfolsom - Billing Boats

[rfolsom]

Views underneath the forecastle deck, the finishing of the hull planking, and initial test of first copper tile...  BTW, this is how she looked in Nov. 2012.

[popeye the sailor]

nice work on your build Bob........that is a very old kit,  somewhere around 25 years old.  I built the Nordkap.....an old kit that had been stored in an attic.......with all that you WOULD have had to do, if you used the parts from the kit.   cutting all the parts out wasn't easy,  and I did have to make some of the parts from scratch,  due to the age of the wood.   billing is famous for sheet bulwark panels.....they do sometimes use a plywood that is hard to work with....I have resorted to planking them,  getting a much more desired effect.  I do wonder how you can call the kit inaccurate,  since your doing most of the build scratch,  and using another person's practicum.  it is a proven fact that most kits have some inaccuracies in them,  either in fit or design.  another aspect not really taken into consideration,  is that if a kit is done to a certain timeline,  and the builder decides to do it in another timeline,  this will make the inaccuracies that much more obvious.  I think that if we got kits that had all the bells and whistles,  there probably wouldn't be such a great hobby.........folks would have given up due to bordom

 

Billings back in the day,  had a weird reason for not including the fittings kit..........if the builder decided that the hobby wasn't for them and gave up on it {condensed version.....what it all boiled down to}...........I think it's printed on the back of the box.   I guess it's not too bad of an idea,  given the cost of the kits today.......but I haven't seen where other manufacturers have done this.   I've built a few Billing kits......the instructions are so vague,  that I've taken to use them as a guide,  more or less.  sites like this one,  are very good places to learn and read about techniques that some use in their builds.   you got what you paid for......an old kit......and by the looks of her,  your doing a fantastic job!       I look forward in seeing more progress on this fine build 

[rfolsom]

Thank you for the kind words, Popeye.  I would say this kit is closer to 40 years old, not 25, as it included photographic slides (remember those from the sixties and seventies?) of the original ship.  As far as calling the kit inaccurate, maybe I was a bit premature, as the bulkheads were quite close to Mr. Cambell's plans, which were not (to my knowledge)  included in a practicum, as he made them in the 1950's for the original (?) restoration. (Plans that is, not bulkheads)  Believe me, If I found a practicum on this ship I would be using it right now!  I don't mean to sound critical of any manufacturer, or any kit;  indeed, the fun of the build is trying to make it as historically accurate, or personally fulfilling as possible.  As a child, I completed Revell's Conny and Cutty, and was always disappointed that it didn't look like the box.  At 12 years old, it took me half an hour to glue the two plastic halves of the hull together, which seemed like eons.  Now, at 44, I spent 7 months planking the hull, and wonder if I rushed the job.

[rfolsom]

Some first coppering

 

Edited March 28, 2014 by rfolsom

[NenadM]

Good work

 

Are you buying or making yourself cooper plates? How thick is folly ?

 

I think it will be nice coopering

 

In some thoughts about "coopering" Cutty, looking at her pictures, it seems that proper colour is messing

 

 

 

 

In other way, before restoration, it seems that was cooper

 

 

Why do you decide for cooper ?

 

Nenad

 

 

 

[popeye the sailor]

gee Nenad.......looking at the picture above,  along the edge of the copper,  you'd swear it was of a model......tell-tale glue and paint.   I wonder if it's because the coppering was polished,  to attain that color........to use gold for plating would be quite an expensive proposition,  hence.....you would have Alice Cooper singing of the  "Bullion Dollar Ship"  LOL!!!

 

Nice coppering Bob........you got a really nice beginning there.   doing it on an untreated surface is a good idea......the cement will be able to bond to the wood better.   I've done the revell Connie too.......didn't do a lot of painting,  as young as I was when I did it.   I have the Cutty,  in an almost finished state {I should get back to her someday}....and I have the United States,  which I'm going to bash using wood.

      I have built both of these ships a long time ago......it's my second time for both.   I always liked the revell series.....I think they are about the best plastic kits out there {I wish they'd begin making them again}.   the first two was done with sails and the studding sails included,  makes for a really large model.......

 

 

your a very lucky person to have gotten those extra plans.....very lucky as well to find it at such a good price      I'm glad you took my meaning.......I think your doing some really nice work there,  impressed that your getting back into the hobby is such a big way    I got that same reply when I spoke to Tom Richardson @ Billing USA  {sadly,  they're no longer around}......the Nordkap was my first wood build.  I wish you the best with your build.......by the looks of your progress,  your well on your way.  I look forward in seeing more 

[clipper]

Hi Bob, I too have had this kit waiting on the shelf many years. To practice for this kit I built the Billings Boat Seeadler . The Seeadler not only came with a separate fittings kit but also with a separate sails kit as well. Each of the three costing the princley sum of £11. 50 each back in 1976.

Good fortune with your build

Tony

[rfolsom]

Hello Nenad;  I am using 1/4 inch self adhesive copper tape obtained from Model Expo.  This is the same tape supplied with their USS Constitution model, which is the same scale (1:78) as this Cutty Sark model.  The width of the tape is very close to scale plate width, and I account for the 1/64" discrepancy by overlapping the plates.  I made a jig so I could easily cut each plate to the required length, making about 40-50 at a go.  I then used a ponce wheel (also from Model Expo) to make the nail dimples along the edges.

 

Now then, as to the color:  Pure copper began accepted use for ships' bottoms around 1783, which was found to erode very quickly and was an expensive process to maintain.  A man by the name of Muntz eventually found an alloy of 60% copper to 40% zinc (Muntz metal) which was then widely used as the "coppering" of ships' bottoms from this period (after 1846).  This alloy was indeed more yellow than pure copper, but probably not as yellow, or gold, as the current restoration suggests.  Also, if you notice another one of my inaccuracies, the nail pattern is distributed in the middle of the plate as well, not just along the edges.  After numerous experiments, I thought the effect was too "busy" not to mention much more laborious, so I opted to just edge the plates with nail dimples.  So, to answer your question in 10,000 words or less, my choice was a compromise between cost, ease of installation, historical accuracy, and personal preference.  BTW, I get alot of the historical information from the book "China Tea Clippers" by G. Campbell (The same one that designed the plans).  This book is currently out of print, but I found a pristine copy on eBay for around $15.  I was introduced to this book by watching Steve Priske's youtube videos on the Flying Cloud Clipper Ship model.  (definitely worth watching).

 

Thanks for your interest!

 

~Bob
 

[rfolsom]

Hello, Popeye:  I'd enjoy seeing pictures of your Revell Cutty;  mine no longer exists (to my knowledge).  Indeed, my goal is to do wood models of the "big three" (Cutty, Connie, and HMS Victory).  I finished the first two as plastic models in my youth but never tackled the Victory.  I have been fascinated by the tall ships since I was about eight years old;  not sure why, since I am a native Nebraskan which is about as far from an ocean port as you can get.   

I'd be interested to hear from everyone what started their interest in this great hobby!  

[rfolsom]

Hello Tony, Is your kit the old 459 (like mine) or the newer version (564)?

[popeye the sailor]

if you bought one of the newer kits,  you'd probably see  quite a few changes       I've modeled everything.....planes,  cars,  boats,  and even figures.   I settled on the bigger kits cuz it took longer than a week to do them.   when I get back to the Cutty {Revell},  I'll probably start another log on her.   here again......there was such a variety of paint schemes out there,  I decided to go with the popular colors and add a few touches of my own.  the biggest problem I had was with the decals......I even got a sheet from Revell themselves,  but they were old and microcracked as well.   I now make my own.   I've heard of the Muntz metal.......good answer! 

[clipper]

Hi Bob, my Cutty is the 564 but i've only had it for about 10 years, i'm not to pleased with the deck house sheet because the printing is totally blurred and will require completely remaking................oh goody goody a bit of scratching. I think I will buy the copper plates when or of I ever get to that part. I've got the BB Wasa to do yet ( a derelict starter abandoned to kicking about in a coal shed for years). A complete strip down and rebuild methinks.

When the poor old Cutty went up in flames my Admiral stood out in the garden with the model box and a box of matches saying that she wanted to make an authentic copy of the ship.   My admiral has a sick sense of humour 

Happy building my friend

Tony

[rfolsom]

Hello Popeye; Indeed, there are a lot of paint schemes on this ship.  This will be my version 

[popeye the sailor]

I look forward in seeing more 

[rfolsom]

The coppering process took about three months.

Edited March 28, 2014 by rfolsom

[popeye the sailor]

that looks great Bob!

[rfolsom]

Final stages of coppering; and first stages of painting...

Edited March 28, 2014 by rfolsom

[rfolsom]

Neenad, if you're still watching, notice how different lighting shows different colors of the same plating!  (I did not notice this until I posted these photos)

[NenadM]

Yes, I noticed that. Just wondering ...

Really nice work

[popeye the sailor]

the copper your working with probably isn't pure.........might have some nickel in it or other alloys.   cripes,  even our U.S. pennies aren't even pure copper.   I think it was back in the '90's.........we had a copper shortage.  I couldn't even find copper paint!  the admiral and a friend of hers were out one day at a craft store,  and they came across a display of model paint,  with several bottles of copper paint in stock......they bought every last one!

 

fantastic progress your doing.........the coppering looks very good!   first time?    I havn't had the privilige yet.........but I'm hoping to give it a try one of these days.   I notice a tressel in the background of one of your pictures........wooden?  looks very nice....another hobby I'd like to get back into.....but it was so long ago

[rfolsom]

Now I'm finally caught up to real time;  these are the latest pics taken of the CS.  I'm currently painting the upper hull, cutting out the freeing ports, and adding the railing along the sides.  There's also a shot of Model Shipways' Niagara that I'm currently working on as well.

Edited March 28, 2014 by rfolsom

[rfolsom]

Thank you Popeye, for the nice comments.  It is indeed my first attempt at coppering, and I chose copper tape bought from model expo, along with their ponce wheel to emulate nail dimples.  Fairly cheap, yet a rewarding method for a newbie.  As far as the trestle, that was a gift from my best friend, and former college roomate, who likes to see me put things together.  Pretty much just a toy from Hobby Lobby's clearance section, but a fun distraction from the tedium (and I do Love the tedium!) of this hobby, and it holds my scrap and partial lumber for the ship modeling.

 

Regards,

 

Bob

[keelhauled]

Bob,

Really nice work on your Cutty.  Something to be very proud of.  The scale of your deck looks great!

 

Just to jump in the conversation, as you said, the Cutty's hull was plated with Mutz Metal, not copper. It's slightly more yellow than copper.

 

That being said, in 1990, I was lucky enough to be at the cutty when it's keel was being re-coppered for the first time since its launch.  The crew was kind enough to give me part (about 3/4) of one of the muntz plates that they had removed.  I have it mounted at home and it looks about the same color as the copper plates or tape that model expo sells after you let it air oxidize for a year.

 

Really nice work!

Marc

Edited August 11, 2013 by keelhauled

[rfolsom]

Marc and Brian;  Thank you so much for your compliments;  Right now I have been working on the US brig Niagara for awhile;  mainly to develop my skills with armament, rigging, and the spar construction before I tackle the Cuttys'.  Niagara is a two masted brig, a beautiful ship, and intermediate skill level according to model shipways.  I will shape her spars and do her rigging before I finish the Cutty's.  And I thank the powers that be that I don't have to copper this one!!

 

Best Wishes and happy modeling,

 

~Bob

[Dognut]

Hi Bob,

Your work is looking great so far. Just looking at your earlier reply to my post, methinks 'twill be a certain S-african going to hide inna cave - or my office - often referred to as my cave...

 

Thanks for your detailed photos - when I get to this stage, I will be referring to them very often;)

[NenadM]

 Hey, Bob

 

 

 

Somewhere on Internet I find plans for CS made by SERGAL ROMA (Italy). What a surprise ! 8 sheets by SERGAL, and 3 sheets by Mr.Campbell ( "General Arrangement", "Rigging plan" and "Sail plan"). Copyright ? I dont know, but ...

 

Also on Internet I find instructions made from "Billing boats" for Cutty Sark "564" ( 40 pages)

 

There are also REVELL plastic kit instructions ( H-399-380) and REVELL A 05401-0389 with interesting details

 

Also, there are instructions for Rattlesnake made by MODEL SHIPWAYS NO MS.2028 with usefull and helpfull tips and ideas. Model Shipways Hull and Rigging plans for Rattlesnake were prepared in 1963 by Mr. George F. Campbell

 

All that find by the Google /pictures accidentally, ready for free download ???

 

And, of course, I have my plans - poor designed and full of mistakes  (TEHNODIDAKTA - see post #63 in my topic). Unfortunately, the above mentioned plans, I found at an advanced stage of work (90% of planking was over), and as I invested quite a lot of work, I'm left to try somehow to correct mistakes, and I hope that the later  details of CS will mask errors that can not be corrected ...    For example, look at attached detail of Campbell plan and proportions on it. In my plans, between the two front deck, space is only 6 mm. How to put anything under ? I am not Harry Potter  !

 

 

 

And you sure use internet and pictures from Greenwich, where is really much to analyze and learn

 

And, also there are some books I read this days

 

 

And also, there are other books that I'm looking for about CS

 

other books.pdf

 

I think that is enough for a solid headache

 

Happy modelling !!!!

 

Edited September 3, 2013 by Nenad M

[NenadM]

I think that right position for your topic is in "scratch build logs" ???

[rfolsom]

I suppose most of my CS is scratch built;  as I only used the prefabricated bulkheads from the kit.  I downloaded the instruction manual from Billings, but I was not satisfied with them.

I do all my modeling from the Cambell plans now.

[popeye the sailor]

not too many folks are....I have quite a few of the Billing's plans.   guess you could say that I seem to have gotten used to them

[rfolsom]

Hello, everyone;

 

I haven't posted in a while;  right now I am trying to figure out the best way to fabricate/mount the side pinrails, and at the same time trying to figure out the best way to fabricate/install the bulwark stanchions.

I do believe this is one of those "moments" to just plow ahead instead of ponder...