Pinnace by Kopape (Petr) - 1:64 - 1660-1670 - design Nicolaes Witsen

[Kopape]

Good day to all the modelers.

I'm very fond of 17th century Dutch ships. That's why I decided to build a pinnace. Why here? The reason is in the author of the plans. Ab Hoving offered me that if I presented the structure here, we could discuss a lot of issues publicly.

 

Plans for this ship can be found in various places:

Ab Hoving - Nicolaes Witsen and shipbuilding in the Dutch Golden Age
Ab Hoving - Dutch merchant ships
And here again - https://nautarch.tamu.edu/shiplab/AbHoving.htm
Antony Talen - http://blessed4789.byethost11.com/2018/07/24/pinas/?i=1

 

According to information from Aba, the 3D model site should also be launched by the end of February, I will add the link.

 

Before I go into construction, I'd like to ask:
I found the year of construction 1671 - is that a good thing?
Are there any plausible paintings, drawings - not this particular one, perhaps, but similar ships?
The text that you drew this boat from - is it available anywhere? I can't imagine how to draw a plan on just any contract.
Is there a Dutch archive on the Internet where you can get information?

[amateur]

The pinace isbased on a Dutch textbook: Nicolaes Witsen, Aeloude Scheepsbouw and bestier, printed in 1671.

(Partly ranslated and annotaed by Ab Hoving in the book you mention in your post (Witsen and shipbuilding in the Dutch Golden age)

The 'fun' of all these recontructions is that inthose years, no drawn plans plans were used, but contracts in which the main dimensions are stated. It was up to thebuilder to translate such a contract into a 3D object. 

Witsen tries to present a description of how all the various parts and measures relate to each other, thus being able to make a reconstruction. However, Witsen was a layman, and it is/was by no means clear that what he describes were general rules, or just what he picked up in communicatimg with one ormore shipbuilders in his own town (Amsterdam).

 

There is a second Dutch ext (written by Van Ijk, in roughly the same period.). That text is written by a shipbuilder. Problem of that text is that he often refers to sentences like 'there are various ways ro do so, it is up to builders discretion'. Probably far betterdescribing daily prectice, but not very helpful for readers 400 years later, as they can't ask the shipbuilder what his preferred way is/was. That is why you see more Witsen-based reconstructions than Van Ijk based ones.

 

Jan

[Ondras71]

Greetings Petr. I am very curious about your building !!! I also plan to ..💣💥 O.

[Cirdan]

Very interesting project. I'm looking forward to be part of this process. 👍

[Ab Hoving]

Hello,

 

A bit earlier than expected the news about the pinas-program is out. It will take another two weeks to implement the English texts. Until then I can give a short description of the program. The user can choose between three options: one is to see (interactively) how a Dutch ship (in this case the pinas) was built. In the second you can virtually walk through all compartments of the ship and recognize the various parts. In the third option, the encyclopedia, any part can be found with the description of the formula for that part and its measurements for this particular ship.

It sounds complicated, but it is very user-friendly and intuitive.

Especially for people like Amateur, who has obviously not much trust in Witsen, this program shows that this 'lay-man' was very well informed, by a shipbuilder he especially hired to help him describe the example ship he chose to tell the story of the Dutch method of shipbuilding.

I have worked about 40 years with the material from the book  and though I often first thought that he gave wrong information, I always, with no exception, had to change what I did, because after all Witsen appeared to be right. The only problem was that his book is a total chaos. I cut the relevant pages into 1200 parts, relocated them until I had a plausible story and made my drawings. After three years I was able to use the drawings for a model, which took another 3 years. In 1994 I published the book I based on Witsen's work, followed by the English translation in 2012. Now, after almost 40 years the digital version is almost ready. I hope it will convince you of the thustworthiness of Witsen's data, like it convinced me. All I know I learned from Witsen.

Soon on your screen!  

 

[Ondras71]

4 minutes ago, Ab Hoving said:

Hello,

 

A bit earlier than expected the news about the pinas-program is out. It will take another two weeks to implement the English texts. Until then I can give a short description of the program. The user can choose between three options: one is to see (interactively) how a Dutch ship (in this case the pinas) was built. In the second you can virtually walk through all compartments of the ship and recognize the various parts. In the third option, the encyclopedia, any part can be found with the description of the formula for that part and its measurements for this particular ship.

It sounds complicated, but it is very user-friendly and intuitive.

Especially for people like Amateur, who has obviously not much trust in Witsen, this program shows that this 'lay-man' was very well informed, by a shipbuilder he especially hired to help him describe the example ship he chose to tell the story of the Dutch method of shipbuilding.

I have worked about 40 years with the material from the book  and though I often first thought that he gave wrong information, I always, with no exception, had to change what I did, because after all Witsen appeared to be right. The only problem was that his book is a total chaos. I cut the relevant pages into 1200 parts, relocated them until I had a plausible story and made my drawings. After three years I was able to use the drawings for a model, which took another 3 years. In 1994 I published the book I based on Witsen's work, followed by the English translation in 2012. Now, after almost 40 years the digital version is almost ready. I hope it will convince you of the thustworthiness of Witsen's data, like it convinced me. All I know I learned from Witsen.

Soon on your screen!  

 

That's great news, Abe. I'm really looking forward to this tour. I envy Peter that he has already started the construction of the Vitsen pinas !! 💣💥

[Ab Hoving]

The best I can do is refer to this thread, Im posted this week: 

I made the plans in 1980-1983 and built the model in 1983-1986. It was purchased by the Noordelijk Scheepvaartmuseum (Norther Shipping Museum) in my place of birth Groningen. The book cane out in 1994 and the English translation in 2012.

Here are some pictures of what the model looks like:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The last two pictures were taken during construction of the model, when it was temporarily place on exhibition ik the Groningen Museum in 1984.

 

I also built it in paper lately:

 

I can advise anyone planning to build a Dutch model to try this one. I learned a lot from building it. I'm sure Kopape will make a beautiful model out of it. So follow this thread!

 

Ab

 

[Kopape]

When the program is online, could you Ab, still add a link?

[Ab Hoving]

The link to the program about the pinas is: https://witsenscheepsbouw.nl.

 

As to your questions in your first post: The book was published in 1671. The material used for the ship must be compiled in the period 1660-1670.

On paintings pinases are often depicted, although not as often as the men-of-war, which are a bit more spectacular than an armed merchant. Here is an example by van Diest:

 

Draughts were not made in those days, as you know. The '134 feet long pinas' by Witsen is only described in words and sketches in his book. In the next version of the witsenscheepsbouw program we will add all the information in text leading to the reconstruction, together with a lot more new improvements.

I have no knowledge about general Dutch source of knowledge about shipbuilding. Some museums have nice sites, showing some of their ship models, Like the Rijksmuseum (https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/nl/rijksstudio/2217046--janzwart/verzamelingen/scheepsmodellen),  but I'm afraid they won't bring you much further.

You're on your own...

[Kopape]

Thank you all for your likes.

Thanks to the amateur for explaining the differences between Witsen and Ijk. I didn't know this.

 

I have to apologize for the inactivity of the thread in the past 3 weeks. After an agreement with Ab, we wanted to start when the website for pinase is launched. Unfortunately, IT specialists understand PCs, not ships.

 

Thanks to Ab for explaining the origin and history of these plans. But I have one question:
Why do the plans in Nicolaes Witsen and Shipbuilding differ and in Dutch merchant ships? Specifically, this numbering and the table to it.

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Kopape

[Ab Hoving]

The answer is simple. Petr. They are two different plans. The one (on top) was done by Cor Emke with AutoCad, the other one from the book (which is the second one you show here) is hand-drawn by myself. There are some differences, but nothing dramatic. Once you are on your way you will encounter some minor aspects that should be changed anyway. Call it 'developing understanding' over a period of 30 years. If you carefully study the 3D images of the 'witsenscheepsbouw' program, you will see what I mean.

[Kopape]

Thanks to Ab for all the links and explanations.

As I looked at the plans, I know I will need a lot of advice.

 

Quote

Call it 'developing understanding' over a period of 30 years.

 

Hm, my annual watching can't be compared to this.
I redrawn the ribs and keel and had them fired on a laser. Unfortunately she came a little broken ...

[Jules van Beek]

Hello Amateur,

Sorry to be so late to the show. Thank you for explaining the difference between Witsen's book and Van Yk's book. 

You say that the vagueness of Van Yk is the reason why less models are based on Van Yk's book than on Witsen's book. But don't you think the main reason why more models are are build from Witsen's book is the fact that Van Yk's book does not contain technical drawings while Witsen's book contains a lot of technical drawings? 

This technical drawing of the pleasure vessel, for example:

 

 

inspired the Scheepvaartmuseum to build a model in 1970, and Ab Hoving to build a model in the 1980's (Scheepshistorie 16).

 

And the technical drawing of the 'Egmonder pinck' (at the top):

 

 

inspired several modelers, like Nic Molenaar and Cor Emke, to build models of a 'pink' (Scheepshistorie 2 & 3).

 

Without Witsen's drawings it would have been much harder to build a good model, don't you think?

 

Jules

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Jules van Beek

[Kopape]

Summer is over and it's finally time to get back to the models.  
Finally I could start at least some minor preparatory work. Some of the ribs needed to be trimmed to make a smooth planking line.
I glued up the skeleton and all but the stern is ready for planking.

 

I didn't have time to model over the summer, so I at least occasionally looked at the 3D model to get some understanding of the design.
And this is where I found out that I would need some advice from Ab Hoving.

So, for starters:
1, Was the colour the same throughout the boat - e.g. yellow ? That's for the inside of the boat and the ornaments.
2, On the 3D model the upper part of the stern is finished differently than on the plans - so what is correct ?
3, There are 6 guns in the plans but I have no idea which ones go where.
4, Was this finishing of the planking up to the rudder only used on the Pinasa or was it used on all Dutch ships ? For example, the Fregat ?

 

[Kopape]

[Ab Hoving]

Hello Petr,

Good to hear you are still active. I almost started to believe you gave up on this one, which would be a pity, because it's a beautiful ship. I don't remember if I mentioned it here, but seven of my paper models were adopted by and exhibited in the archaeological museum 'Huis van Hilde' in Castricum, Holland. Amongst those seven models were three fluit-models and my pinas model. Of course I was proud of the beautiful location for showing my work, but at the same time I also missed the sight of my fluits and my pinas in the interior of my house. So I started working on a few new models for my own use: a small fluit and a new pinas (Why do you call it 'pinasa'? Is that plural in  your country?)

 

 

 

Sorry for the bad picture of the latter, better ones will follow once my son has time to do a better job.

I did a report of the build of the pinas (which took only two months in total) on another forum, which seems to be not very popular here, so I will skip the rest.

 

Now for your questions:

1. Colors are up to a degree a matter of personal taste, together with the available pigments at the time. Yellow was used a lot, but only in earth colors. A good method is to use an ochre and cover it after drying with a light brown varnish to dim the brightness. 

 

2. You must realize that the 3D representation of the pinas was done in a program (Delftship), which was originally not meant to make such complicated shapes with. It's the talent of my companion Rene Hendrickx that led to the decorations as can be studied in the 3D model. For making a model it seems a good idea to also study pictures of contemporary paintings and drawings, to get a more realistic result. As to details, like scroll work or other options like you show, you must know that the only rule here was that the upper work of the stern was 'doorluchtig', which in translation literally means 'episcopal'. That does not really clear the sight, but In fact it just means that there were openings in it, so the wind did not have too much effect. It makes no difference wether you use scroll work or small bars, as long as there are sufficient openings there. You could even use both options together.

 

3. Good question.

There were several types of guns aboard for various reasons. There were three types of 'metal' (bronze) guns, of which two types (both 12-pounders) were installed in the gunroom: the normal type and a short version, which was placed behind the most afterward gun ports. If necessary this gun was easier to turn to the gun ports in the square tuck in case the ship was being chased. The reason that they used bronze guns here was because iron guns could influence the working of the close-by compasses in the steering compartment. The third type of bronze gun was a 6-pounder 'draeck' (dragon) of considerable length to be used for chasing and was placed behind the most forward gunport in the forecastle.

The rest are cast iron guns, which were heavier, but also much less costly. The big ones, the 12-pounders were placed behind gun port 2 and 3 of the lower deck, reckoned from the bow, the rest of the gun ports were used for the 8-pounders in the list. The four 4-pounders were used in the forecastle.

 

4. The lower planking stretching up to the aft side of the stern is a typical Dutch solution to make sure that the stern was supported as much as possible. Other traditional building methods, like in England, did not apply this method, probably because the sterns there were supported by a huge piece of dead wood. I cannot think of any Dutch vessel that did not show this extended planking at the stern.

 

I hope you find these remarks useful and wish you succes with the build.

Don't hesitate to ask if you are in doubt about anything.

 

Best,

Ab

Edited October 7, 2021 by Ab Hoving

[flying_dutchman2]

Hi Petr, 

I am pulling up a chair and will follow your build with great interest. I will probably build a Pinas after I finish my fluit, the Zeehaen. 

You are in good hands. Ab is extremely knowledgeable on Dutch ships, which will make building the Pinas much easier than if Ab wasn't available. 

 

Marcus 

[Kopape]

Dne 10/7/2021 v 8:32, Ab Hoving řekl:

I almost started to believe you gave up on this one, which would be a pity, because it's a beautiful ship.

Hello Ab,
there's no reason to give up - we're at the beginning. I'm a rather slow modeller due to time and this summer has been bad for modelling for me, and this year extremely so. But it's already over.

 

Congratulations on the acceptance of the models into the museum. But I'm not sure I would have the heart to get rid of so many models and not have them at home. I'd probably miss them.

 

Dne 10/7/2021 v 8:32, Ab Hoving řekl:

Why do you call it 'pinasa'? Is that plural in  your country?

Yes, that's right, but from now on I'll write pinas.

 

About the colours - I guess I know they can't be bright and should probably be more dark, right ? Could they be chosen from a colour swatch from Humbrol for example ?

 

Hello, Marcus,
the fact that Ab Hoving agreed to advise me, was the reason I started this thread. It's not to show off - I'm not that handy for that, but rather to discuss more information about Dutch ships of the 17th century. Therefore, anyone who has a question about these ships, no problem posting here.
To confess, I have already - thanks to his patience - worked with Ab on modifications to a previous model. And his advice and comments were absolutely amazing.

 

                                                                                                                                                               Petr

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by Kopape

[Hubac's Historian]

This all looks really fascinating, and off to a great start.  I'm a big fan of this period in Dutch naval architecture.  I will be following with great interest!

[Kopape]

As I looked, it's been 10 months since my last post. It's time to add something.

After studying the 3D model, I was very surprised to see that the fuselage is painted on the inside. The original idea - to trim 1mm, then the other 1mm, remove the ribs from the inside and sand the fuselage was not applicable. I came up with this idea: I removed part of the ribs above the deck, which will be replaced with new ones. These will be 0.5mm wider on each side to make room for the inner painted planking. So instead of 2 x 1mm, the hull above the deck will be planked with 2 x 0.5mm and 1 x 1mm.

Unfortunately, after building the skeleton, I found that when I enlarged the plans, there was a deviation of 4 percent at the stern. I had to sit down at the PC and tweak all parts of the drawings to be the same. This unfortunately delayed me more than I would have liked. And of course I had to redo the stern.

After comparing the ribs, I started on the planking. I reinforced the inside of the fuselage with epoxy and Perlane. ( My wife uses it to make the pattern ).

 

I finished the 1mm planking below the bottom edge of the deck and continued with 0.5mm.

I then glued a section of ribs 1mm wider and finished the whole hull above the deck with 0.5mm.

 

I then trimmed the hull to shape. The work of flattening the ribs paid off - in two hours the hull was polished and I didn't even have to trim it.

Now I'm preparing for the second planking below the waterline.
 Here I was looking at the plans, the waterline is not parallel to the keel. It's getting smaller in the front. Does this mean the ship had more submergence aft when sailing ?
And when I sketched the keel - on the pinnac it's made up of three parts. How was it folded on the smaller boats? According to the length of the vessel ? On a yacht, one piece, on a frigat, a fluit, two?

[Ab Hoving]

Hello Petr,

Good to see you are making progress with the pinas again. 

I didn't know there was a deviation in the plans. Originally there was. I made the drawings after working hours on the kitchen table on tracing paper, and it appeared that the paper had stretched after over a year having been rolled up and back. But to tell you the truth, when making the models, I never noticed any problems with them, because I work more 'by sight' than looking at plans. I admire your desire for perfection.

I don't think I understand your problems: painted on the inside?.

Anyway, you seem to have found a solution and the hull looks nice and sturdy, although I am not really a fan of plywood frames, but that's just a personal opinion. I suppose you will add a second layer of planking. Look out, the start is crucial. Try to find the correct position of the wales and fill in the rest of the planking. And yes, the ship is deeper at the stern. There even was a formula for that: For every 50 feet of length the stern was 1 foot deeper in the water. For the pinas that was about 2 1/2 feet (ca 70 cm). When I made my 1/50 scale wooden model I tested that in the bath tub: the difference between for and aft was spot on: about 1,5 cm!

Indeed the keel was made out of three parts. It was all depending of the available wood. If there were trunks of sufficient length available they used two, in rare cases four were necessary, for smaller ship usually one piece was enough. Apparantly Witsen witnessed the building of this pinas and saw three pieces were used.

Good luck, you are off to a great start.

[Kopape]

Quote

If you find any mistake, feel free to let me know.

I had the plans scanned and then enlarged. All at once. I should have cut them up and then enlarged them. I think that's where I made a mistake.

Quote

I don't think I understand your problems: painted on the inside?.

By colour, I mean the planks - red, yellow, on the sides.

10 minutes ago, Ab Hoving said:

I suppose you will add a second layer of planking

Of course. Below the waterline will be a lime tree, above will be a pear tree.

 

13 minutes ago, Ab Hoving said:

Try to find the correct position of the wales and fill in the rest of the planking.

Yes, that's the plan. I'll just have a few questions about the wales afterwards, but when it's their turn.😉

[Ab Hoving]

Ah, now I understand. The colors on the inside are a regrettable result of working with 3D programs: each part gets its color right from the start and it gets it all around. In reality the inside of the hull was simply tarred brown to protect the wood. The colors were only applied to the outside. Sorry for the confusion.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Ab Hoving

[Kopape]

28 minutes ago, Ab Hoving said:

Sorry for the confusion.

You've got nothing to apologize for.

And the bulkheads ( green in the picture ) and ornaments ( yellow ) but I guess they were colored?

[Ab Hoving]

They were, but just on the front side. I asked the IT man who  transformed the Delftship files in something useful for the internet. I'll keep you posted on his answer.

Ab

[Kopape]

[Kopape]

[Nick Raposo]

Hello all! Very exciting thread.

I am working on a 3D model of the Pinas Witsen based on Mr. Hoving's plans.

When we say it was 134 feet, is that between perpendiculars? I just want to make sure.

Thank you!

Nick

[Ab Hoving]

Yes, correct. The length is measured from the front side of the stem to the aft side of the stern post.

Good luck!

[Kopape]

After a long time, I can add a small shift. Not much time over the summer - my son is building a house and there is more than enough to do around here.
Last time I wrote that I was going to start the second layer of planking.So I measured the hull and found that it is wider at the deck. The mistake was made during the laser burning, when I didn't measure the finished ribs.
So I had to remove some of the planking, sand the ribs and re-plank them. Unfortunately the hull didn't stay as smooth, I had to resort to caulking. On the other hand, the hull now fits dimensionally with the plans.
While I was finishing the fuselage, I also made the base for the gunwale.

I wanted to continue with the shooting frame and here I ran into a problem with the execution.
Batavia - there is one extra recess compared to the Province. Red arrows.
Province - the bottom edge is angled away from the ship. Orange arrow.
So I don't know what to do about the gunnery. Was there a difference between a warship and a merchant ship? Or just between shipbuilders?

And I guess I'd go straight to Ab Hoving with the next problem - the statues that are visible in the deck cut are unfortunately nowhere on the side plan. And when I looked at the 3D model online, they're not there at all. So question - were they just built with the underside against the wall ? Or were they more recessed ? Red rectangle.

Thank you in advance for all the information on loopholes.

 

                                                                                                                                                                                         Petr