Lateen yards – inside or outside of the shrouds?

[catopower]

The lateen rig is not a subject that one can find a large amount of information on when it comes to ship modeling. 

 

In most cases, I see lateen yards are located inboard of the shrouds. This makes sense to me, though I then am always left to wonder how one tacks or jibs such a rigged vessel. 

 

Now, I've been looking at early American gunboats from the War of Independence as well as those of the Jeffersonian era and War of 1812, etc. There are a lot of lateen rigs there. I'm interested in the Galley Washington, for which there is a nice set of plans from the NRG, plus the monograph. However, one thing that's always bothered me about these plans is that they lack much detail when it comes to rigging. Still, the monograph goes as far as saying that the lateen yard goes outboard of the shrouds. 

 

Is it true that some lateen rigs are done this way?

 

It seems odd to me in that with sails up, there are no parrals to hold the yard against the mast, so all the force of wind is taken only by the halliard. What's worse is that the halliard is being pulled sideways from the pulley in the mast top, so it would be constantly be chafing there. It would also be very difficult to haul the yard up in the wind, as the pulley would be next to useless.

 

 

Now, I get that the main focus is a POF build of the hull of the ship and not with the rig. In fact, if you mount sails, the model plans don't seem to make any allowances for the belaying of sail handling lines, such as the brails or sheets (if that's what they're called on the lateen sail).

 

So, I'm hoping someone can shed some light for me on the lateen rig. Or maybe just on the Galley Washington plans?

 

[thibaultron]

I believe that to tack a lateen sail, the halyard is loosened, and the tip of the spar is pulled back behind the mast, then the halyard pulled in again with the yard now on the other side of the mast.

[Louie da fly]

6 hours ago, thibaultron said:

I believe that to tack a lateen sail, the halyard is loosened, and the tip of the spar is pulled back behind the mast, then the halyard pulled in again with the yard now on the other side of the mast.

 

It depends. Historically they are shown doing so. But on small Mediterranean lateeners they usually don't bother. Note that there is a loop of rope that acts as a parrel which keeps the yard close to the mast.

 

 

 

But it may be different with a bigger sail. I did quite a bit of research on this with my dromon build - see  https://modelshipworld.com/topic/10344-10th-11th-century-byzantine-dromon-by-louie-da-fly-150-finished/page/41/

 

In Mediterranean lateeners the yard is and was usually outside the shrouds, but in galleons and other ships of the 16th to early 18th century, the lateen mizzen had the yard inside the shrouds; most probably because the mizzen wasn't the main source of propulsion.

 

Steven

 

 

[Cristiano]

9 hours ago, catopower said:

T

 

Now, I get that the main focus is a POF build of the hull of the ship and not with the rig. In fact, if you mount sails, the model plans don't seem to make any allowances for the belaying of sail handling lines, such as the brails or sheets (if that's what they're called on the lateen sail).

 

So, I'm hoping someone can shed some light for me on the lateen rig. Or maybe just on the Galley Washington plans?

 

When I built a Polacre, I made some research on the subject, since was a scratch build model.

Below there is a scheme that explain better than many words how where managed the latin sails.

Hope it clarified all of your doubts! 😀

[catopower]

Ron, Steven, Christiano, thank you for the replies. Everything posted makes sense.

 

What I'm gathering is that there just may be variations in the lateen rig, and the way it's handled may depend on the specific design. 

 

On small boats, as Steven pointed out, one may not bother to shift the yard and said to the other side of the mast. But, when we get to larger vessels, there is a difference between whether we're talking foremast vs mizzen. Or perhaps the criteria really has more to do with whether the mast is vertical or canted forward?

 

Christiano, on the polacre, is your yard then outside of the shrouds on the foremast and inside the shrouds on the mizzen? Also, is there any chance can you tell me what the source is of the information?

[Cristiano]

10 hours ago, catopower said:

Ron, Steven, Christiano, thank you for the replies. Everything posted makes sense.

 

What I'm gathering is that there just may be variations in the lateen rig, and the way it's handled may depend on the specific design. 

 

On small boats, as Steven pointed out, one may not bother to shift the yard and said to the other side of the mast. But, when we get to larger vessels, there is a difference between whether we're talking foremast vs mizzen. Or perhaps the criteria really has more to do with whether the mast is vertical or canted forward?

 

Christiano, on the polacre, is your yard then outside of the shrouds on the foremast and inside the shrouds on the mizzen? Also, is there any chance can you tell me what the source is of the information?

The matter related to the latin sails as used in big vessels is more complex.

The latin sails ships like xebec, polacre, pinco, galleys and so on were widely used in all the Mediterranean sea, by Spain, France, Italy and all the north African Countries, which composed later the Ottoman Empire.

Since the latin sails were the main source of propulsion, they needed to be big and to be "arranged" in any position possible, in order to use at their best the wind.

So they were placed not inside the shrouds.

Even the mizzen mast latin sail was not placed inside the shrouds, since it contribuited in a more relevant percentage to the propulsion of the ship.

Later when the squared sail arrangement become relevant, the mizzen mast latin sail become less important and become smaller and placed inside the shrouds.

The model I made is an hybrid, a polacre, but belonging to a period when the squared sail was already the most used main ship arrangment, so the latin sail of the mizzen mast is small and within the shrouds. In addition, since the main mast is provided with squared sails, it can be adopted a big latin sail for the mizzen mast, due to interference.

 

Below some images that can show how were arranged the sails.

As you can see there are many ways to arrange the latin sails, using always the same rigging.

 

 

As you can see in the last painting ("L'Aquila" a galley of the Savoia family), a contemporary one of the ship, the mizzen mast sail act a more relevant role than in the typical squared sails ships.

If you check my thread related to the construction of the polacre you will find some painting of the same period of the ship.

Regarding the sources:

I have many books, in addition I am lucky and I had the opportunity to visit the naval museum of Venezia, which still has various rigged galleys models, built in the same period of the galleys, very big and provided with rigging details.

If you want there is this book, too, which is full of explantions and complete plans and rigging details:

 https://www.amazon.com/Vele-italiane-della-costa-occidentale/dp/8820348330/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=vele+costa+occidentale&qid=1615933520&s=books&sr=1-1

 

I wrote of it there:

A small detail...is completely written in Italian...but an interesting source of informations, even without knowing the language.

 

The thread of the polacre is there:

 

 

Regarding the position of the foremast:

the canted forward position I think has the only purpose to enlarge the distance between tha main mast and foremast, in order to lower the interference between the sails.

In these latin sails, since the only point of the latin sail attached to the mast is near the top of it, you obtain big benefits just moving the top of the mast forward.

 

Hope that the provided informations can be useful.

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Cristiano
additional informations added

[wefalck]

It is probably important to make distinction between a true 'lateen' rig and using a triangular sail on an inclined yard resembling a 'lateen' sail.

 

In a true lateen rig, there are no shrouds and no stays. The halliard serves to raise the sail and as kind of backstay. The yard is held to the mast by a sling that is operated from deck-level. In fact most of the sail operation is done from deck level - the absence of shrouds and ratlines makes getting up the mast at sea quite an adventure. On Arab ships (which did not use lateen, but 'settee' sails that had four corners) seamen went up the yard like monkeys for reefing (there is a variety of photographic and literary evidence for this). Whether the sail was swung around the mast when tacking seems to have been a question of fashion and size or type of vessel. On some smaller and shallower craft this may have been a dangerous operation.

 

Probably still the best source on handling lateen rigs is

 

VENCE, J. (1897): Construction & manœuvre des bateaux & embarcations à voilure latine.- 139 p., Paris (Augustin Challamel Editeur, reprint Editios Omega, Nice).

 

Not sure whether there is a digital copy on the Internet (I own a hardcopy).

 

On the pictures below you can see the traditional arrangement of halliard and sling, albeit with modern materials, on small boats from the Albufera lagoon south of Valencia in Spain:

 

 

 

Own images from https://www.maritima-et-mechanika.org/maritime/albufera/Boats-of-the-Albufera.html

 

 

 

[Thanasis]

See there...

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k11684265.texteImage

Thx

[Dr PR]

This thread has been very informative. I especially thank Cristiano for his drawings.

 

I have know of the existence of latin (lateen) sails for decades, but never made a serious effort to learn how they were worked. Years ago I read a poorly worded description that said when the vessel tacked the lower end of the spar was held in place on deck and the spar (and sail) was lifted over the top of the mast! Or at least that is the way I interpreted the wording, and it made no sense at all! How are you supposed to lift something over the top of the mast? Use a sky hook??

 

Now I see how the sail and spar are swung around the mast, and it really is quite simple. A small crew can handle it.

 

Thanks to everyone for clearing this up.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Dr PR

[Louie da fly]

 Wefalck, merci beaucoup pour la référence.  

 

Though I'll accept that a lateen on a small vessel can be used without shrouds, larger ships seem to need them. I don't know that there's really a difference between a lateen with or without shrouds.

 

Steven

[Harvey Golden]

I've tried to find information on Lateen rigs specific to the ones used on San Francisco Bay Feluccas, and a number of photographs of historic examples as well as more recent reconstructions seem to show shrouds only on one side-- the side being opposite the side the yard is on. This leaves the yard quite free of shroud interference, especially in a run.  This leaves me with two questions: Am I seeing these correctly?  ... And, were the shrouds shifted to the opposite side when the yard was tacked?  These vessels would be among the smaller ones to use Lateen rigs, and they were used by Italian Immigrants-- most likely from more southerly Italy.  Here is one on-line example I've come across that seems to show this: https://www.nps.gov/media/photo/view.htm%3Fid%3D4D5D2F58-155D-4519-3E15047BCF55EEAB

 

FWIW, I recently built a model of one from Chapelle's "American Small Sailing Craft" (It's in the Gallery. . . scratch, and not too far down), and it is very much an interpretation, as some details remain vague in my mind. Nevertheless, the physics of the above method make some sense to me (single-side shrouds, opposite the yard), but I really have no idea and no experience.  I did run the model's rig by two friends who sailed a recent (1980s-1990s?) S.F. Bay reconstruction, and they said it looked good, despite some years past their handling it. 

All the best, 

Harvey

[wefalck]

We are talking here about two different maritime histories and tradtions that at some point began to merge, recognising each other's advantages and trying to take the most appropriate from both.

 

Mediterranean (and Arab) vessels originally do not seem to have had permanently set shrouds and stays. Mast for the lateen or settee sails could be quite short, but had to be stout and were firmly set into mainly heavy hulls mainly built skeleton-first. Backstays or shrouds (in this case there is no clear distinction) were set 'flying', connected with toggles to the hull and tightened by sets of pulleys.

 

Nordic vessels used square sails and in consequence required taller masts that had to be comparatively lighter and in consequence needed stays and shrouds. Nordic vessels tended to be built lighter and shell-first.

 

At some stage in the North the value or need of sails set up permanently for use in longitudinal direction was recognised - as long as you had a single square sail you could set it up also longitudinally, particularly when there were also flying shrouds (as in the Viking ships for instance). When the rigs in the North became heavier and needed more support, this was not possible anymore. It would interesting to speculate why the lateen was adopted (from which the gaff-sails seems to have been derived) and not a standing lug.

 

Anyway, this led to the problem of handling a sail, that was not conceived for being set on a permanently stayed mast - hence the question: inside or outside of the shrouds.

 

Conversely, the polaccre rig was developed in the Mediterranean to have the advantages of square sails. The mast was made longer and now needed permanent stays and shrouds, leading to the same problem with the lateen sail. I gather many vessels in that region used flying shrouds and backtays for that reason.

 

In some areas the sling that keeps the lateen at the mast is also use as flying backstay. When going about the sail is lowered and the sling is taken to the other side and then the sail is hoisted again, sometimes after taking it around to the other side too.

[Thanasis]

Hi. To add my two pennies' worth . 
I have also read (I'm not familiar to sailing), that when the wind is at the stern,  a lateen sail at  longwise of the boat, turns out to be weak to take full this advantage. So some mariners prefer a "freely" attached lateen yard-sail (outside of the shrouds) so that they could set it and use it as square one.
See the shrouds with pulleys and the lateen sail at square use in a Trabaccolo vessel.
Thx

..

 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Thanasis

[wefalck]

It is difficult to say here what the chicken and what the egg is, i.e. whether there are no shrouds to allow the flexibility of the lateen or whether the lateen is so flexible because there are no shrouds. However, functionally speaking, the presence of permanently set shrouds and backstays would impair the useability and flexibility of the lateen. The nautical terminology, particularly the English/Dutch/German one, we use to day was largely developed for northern European vessels. Thus categories such as sheets or braces are not very well adapted to the operation of lateen sails. From the pictures you posted above, one can see that there are various 'ropes' with with one can control the position of a lateen. In general the points at which these are belayed or fastened are not fixed, but can be moved around to suit the needs of the moment. The lateen can be used before the wind almost like a square sail, turning a sheet into a brace etc. If there were shrouds this would be difficult or would take a long time to arrange or dangerous.

[Louie da fly]

12 hours ago, wefalck said:

The lateen can be used before the wind almost like a square sail, turning a sheet into a brace etc.

 

Precisely.

 

One of the ropes on the vessel below is a halyard. But are the others shrouds or backstays? Or what? (rhetorical question - no answer needed).

 

 

I must say, Wefalck's contributions have got me thinking about issues relating to lateens that I hadn't considered before.

 

Steven

 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Louie da fly