Serving Back Stays

[DaveBaxt]

According to Mondfield's 'Historic Ship Models' I understand that the backstays were served their full length from the first half of the 18th century  and this would include the HMS Bounty 1787. Can anyone confirm that this would be all of the back stays? Best regards Dave

[allanyed]

Dave,   Not sure this helps, but in Lees' Masting and Rigging, he makes no mention of serving standing backstays, breast backstays or running breast backstays. By the same token he details the worming and serving of the foremost shrouds and other parts of other lines so MAYBE, the serving or not serving of the backstays was not an absolute.   Assuming (not usually a good thing) the purpose of the serving was to protect the lines from chaffing from the sails, serving backstays does not make sense.  If they were  served and If not for chaffing protection, what would be the purpose of serving the backstays?  Curious minds, etc.  😀

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by allanyed

[DaveBaxt]

10 minutes ago, allanyed said:

Dave,   Not sure this helps, but in Lees' Masting and Rigging, he makes no mention of serving standing backstays, breast backstays or running breast backstays. By the same token he details the worming and serving of the foremost shrouds and other parts of other lines so MAYBE, the serving or not serving of the backstays was not an absolute.   Assuming (not usually a good thing) the purpose of the serving was to protect the lines from chaffing from the sails, serving backstays does not make sense.  If they were  served and If not for chaffing protection, what would be the purpose of serving the backstays?  Curious minds, etc.  😀

 

Confusing to say the least. It does suggest that this is not absolute. So can I assume that most people would not carry this out? Thanks once again for your quick response. Best regards Dave

[allanyed]

Dave,  I went through a lot of photos of contemporary models and cannot find even one with served backstays.  Then again, a lot of these may have been re-rigged over the past few hundred years.  They do mostly, if not all,  have the foremost shrouds served their length so attention was paid to such serving.  Again, is this absolute?  Probably not, but without contemporary information indicating otherwise, I would not serve the back stays.    

[DaveBaxt]

Thank you for getting to the bottom of this for me Allen. Fortunately I have served the fore most shrouds and where the other shrouds are wrapped around the masts. Although the back stays are not fully served , am I correct in saying they are served where they are wrapped around the mast head and also fitted with a mouse except for the top gallant back stays. Basically anywhere there might be some rubbing taking place . Best regards Dave

 

 

[wefalck]

Well, zu Mondfeld sometimes seems to have transgressed his competences and played the guru ... When I saw the title of the post, I had the same thoughts as Allen: why would one want to serve backstays and in particular over the full length ?

 

It is always a good idea, if there is evidence missing, to take say a yard and position it in the extreme positions and then check what kind of running rigging on the sails or the sail itself might come into contact with parts of the standing rigging.

 

Making a mental exercise, I could envisage that, when sailling high up the wind the windward clew of the main-course might touch the backstays when hauled out. Similarly when sailing almost before the wind with the spanker boom fully swung out, the boom, the gaff, and the spanker might touch the back-stay of that mast. It would make some sense to serve the respective contact areas of the rear-most backstay.

[allanyed]

Dave,  Taking information from Lees' Masting and Rigging, main stays and main preventer stays, fore and fore preventer stays, and mizen stays of course were commonly rigged with a mouse.  The main and fore stays and preventer stays were wormed, but not served from abut six feet  below the mouse downward before being snaked together.  Note that the snaking of the stays came into use about 1700, and then mainly during war time.   

 

I have never seen backstays with a mouse, perhaps others here have.  The back stays were rigged around the masts similarly to the way the shrouds were rigged to the masts normally having matching back stays port and starboard.  I cannot find any information that the back stays were wormed but they would have been wormed, parceled and served where they went round the mast and running  a short distance below where they go round the mast.  I know everyone has a budget, myself included, but Lees Masting and Rigging would be my choice for rigging  if I could only have one book on rigging English vessels.  

[bartley]

As others have said, it seems questionable on a square rigger.  However on Cheerful,  which has a huge gaff rigged fore and aft sail,  the backstays are served all the way down because as the main is sheeted out to go off the wind there would be considerable chaffing.  Mind you, in this situation the leeward backstay would have been slackened anyway.

 

John

[DaveBaxt]

Thank you every one for trying to help me with what seems to be a very complex subject, Even some of the experts who have produced books on rigging seem to  have a difference of opinion. I suppose it is understandable having been so long ago and once explained to me that the guys who write these books, only have the same information as i  or anyone has. Allan I have a number of books which I have purchased since starting this wonderful hobby less than a year ago but still want to gain as much knowledge as possible I  will see if I can get lees book on Masting and rigging. for hopefully a more balanced view. To make sure I am looking at the right book is it 'Masting and rigging for English ships of war  1625 to 1860 ? 

[wefalck]

One should always remember, that the masts, spars and the rigging are kind of a living thing. They can be and are continuously modified to improve the performance and serviceability of a ship. Even on naval ships a lot was left to the discretion of the captain and the officers, as long as the materials provided were used. Extra materials the captain had to pay for himself. So any reconstructed rigging plan can only reflect common practices and materials of the time, nothing more, in the absence of precise sources.

 

I would take any modern book on rigging with some caution, particularly, when it claims to cover long periods of time and diverse regions. It is unlikely that the authors are experts with such a wide coverage. It is always a good idea to check their references section in order to see what written sources they claim to have used. Having said that, I think Lee's book is quite reliable, as he substantiates his claims also with a critical assessment of the rigging of the models in the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich.

 

Talking about written sources: by coincidence, I made a few days ago an excerpt on masting and rigging from my 130+ page literature list. It focuses on the 19th century though (my own area of interest) and does not list many older works. In the first column you will find a letter that indicates the presence of the work in own library. A B means I own a hardcopy and an E denotes an ebook. Many books on which the copyright has expired are now available as scans. A Google-search lists many of them, but Google has taken to the bad habit of listing often now modern reprints, rather than the electronic version. A certain persistence in searching is required. Another bad habit of Google is in their scanning programme to not unfold plates, which renders many scans quite useless. Search also archive.org and www.gallica.bnf.fr for French works. Many other national libraries have digitised works in their respective languages in often very good scans.

 

I would appreciate any suggestions to complete my list below (preferably with complete bibliographic referencing):

 

   Anderson, R.C. (1952): Seventeenth century rigging.- p., ().

   Anderson, R.C. (1984): The Rigging of Ships - In the Days of the Spritsail Topmast 1600-1720.- 278 p., London (Conway Maritime Press).

BE BIDDLECOMBE, G. (1848): The Art of Rigging.- 155 p., Salem, Ma. (Reprint 1990 by Dover Publication, New York).

B  BOBRIK, E. (1848): Handbuch der praktischen Seefahrtskunde, Bd. I.- 816 p., Leipzig (Verlagsbureau).

B  BOBRIK, E. (1848): Handbuch der praktischen Seefahrtskunde, Bd. II, I. Abtheilung.- 992 p., Leipzig (Verlagsbureau).

B  BOBRIK, E. (1848): Handbuch der praktischen Seefahrtskunde, Schiffgebäudekunde, Zurüstungskunde, Manövrierkunde, Ankerkunde, Tafeln zur Schifferkunde.- 604 p. + Tafelband, Leipzig (Nachdruck 1978 bei Horst Hamecher, Kassel).

B  BOBRIK, E. (1848): Vom Tauwerk und seiner Zubereitung zur Taakelasche (aus Handbuch der praktischen Seefahrtskunde.- 24 p., Leipzig (Nachdruck 1975 bei Verlag Egon Heinemann, Norderstedt).

   BOUDRIOT, J. (1975): Seventy Four Gun Ship. Volume III: Masts - Sails - Rigging.- 280 p., 13 pl.,  (Collection Archeologie Navale Française).

E  BRADY, W.W. (1852, 6th ed.): The Kedge Anchor; or Young Sailor’s Assistant. Appertaining to the Practical Evolutions of Modern Seamanship, Rigging, Knotting, Splicing, Blocks, Purchases, Running-Rigging, and Other Miscellaneus Matters Applicable to Ships of War and Others.- 400 p., New York (Published by the Author).

K  BRADY, W.W. (1863): Brady’s Kattanker. Handbuch für Seeleute (aus dem Englischen von J.L. Stipperger).- 247 p., 37 Tab., Hamburg (P. Salomon & Co.).

E  BREART, E. (18..): Manuel du Gréement et de la Manœuvre des bâtiments à voile et à vapeur. Comprenant les matières exigées pour l’obtention du Brevet de Capitaine au long cours et de Maître au cabotage.- 459+13 p., 7 pl., Paris (Librairie Scientifique, industrielle et agricole, Eugène Lacroix).

B  BRÉART, E. (1861): Manuel du gréement et de la mannœuvre des bâtiments à voiles et à vapeur. Premiere Partie.- 338 p., Paris (Eugène Lacroix, Editeur).

B  BRÉART, E. (1863): Manuel du gréement et de la mannœuvre des bâtiments à voiles et à vapeur. Deuxieme Partie. Manœuvres particulières au batiment à vapeur.- 110 p., Paris (Eugène Lacroix, Editeur).

B  BRÉART, E. (1864): Manuel du gréement et de la mannœuvre des bâtiments à voiles et à vapeur. Atlas.- 16 pl., Paris (Eugène Lacroix, Editeur).

E  BROWN, S. (1809): An Essay on Iron Rigging and Cables.- 93 p., London (printed for the author).

E  BUSHELL, C. (1856, 2nd ed.): The Rigger's Guide and Seaman’s Assistant Containing Practical Instructions for Completely Rigging Ships of War – Second Edition, with sixteen addtional pages on wire rigging.- 214 p., London (H. Lewis).

   BUSHELL, C. (1857, 3rd ed.): The Rigger's Guide and Seaman’s Assistant - Third edition. with considerable additions relative to wire rigging, formation of knots, etc.- 226 p., London ().

   BUSHELL, C. (1877, 6th ed.): The Rigger's Guide and Seaman’s Assistant.- xx p., London ().

E   BUSHELL, C. (1893, 7th ed.): The Rigger's Guide and Seaman’s Assistant; Containing Practical Instructions for Rigging Ships, with Considerable Additions Relative to Wire Rigging, Formation of  Knots, etc.- 254 p., Portsmouth (Griffin & Co.).

   CHAPMAN, H.C., JONES, A.F. (c. 1840): Rules for the Uniform Masting and Sparring of Merchant Ships... with... Suggestions on Ships and Ship-Building.- 32 p., 1 pl., Liverpool ().

E  DUBREUL, P.-J. (1835): Manuel de matelotage et de manœuvre, à la usage des éléves de l´École Navale et des candidates aux places de capitane au long cours et de capitane au cabotage.- 279 p., ? pl., Paris (L’Impremerie Royale).

E  DUBREUL, P.-J. (1839): Manuel de matelotage et de manœuvre, à la usage des éléves de l´École Navale et des candidates aux places de capitane au long cours et de capitane au cabotage.- 285 p., IV pl., Paris (Bachelier Imprimeur-Libraire).

B  DUBREUL, P.-J. (1851): Manuel de matelotage et de manœuvre, à la usage des éléves de l´École Navale et des candidates aux places de capitane au long cours et de capitane au cabotage.- 342 p., 4 pl., Brest (J.-B. et A. Lefournier Libraires-Editeurs).

E  Cock, J. (1840): A Treatise on Mast-Making for Every Class or Description of Merchant Ships or Vessels.- 52 p., 1 pl. (missing), Pembroke (J.G. Barclay).

K  FINCHAM, J. (1854, 3rd ed.): A Treatise on Masting Ships & Mast Making.- 384 p., London (Nachdruck 1982, Conway Maritime Press).

E   GEANETTE, M.A. (1983): Mast Step and Keelson. The Early Development of a Shipbuilding Technology.- MA Thesis: 148 p., College Station (Texas A&M University).

E  Grange, J. (1867): Hints to Young Shipmasters in Drafting and Cutting Ships’ Rigging and Sails, Placing and Fitting Masts, etc. etc.; With a Form of Shipmasters’ Books and Accounts, and Several Useful Remarks.- 110 p., 2 Tab., Glasgow (MacGregor & Co.).

E  Henriquez, A. Ritter von (1873): Takelung und Manöver.- 87 p., (Schmidt).

   HILDEBRANDT, O. (1872): Praktisches Lehrbuch für junge Seeleute der Kriegs- und Kauffahrtei-Marine.- 354 p., 10 pl., Danzig (A.W. Kafemann). (DTM 2/91/997)

B  HILDEBRANDT, O. (1893): Praktisches Lehrbuch für junge Seeleute.- 430 p., 10 pl., Danzig (Ernst Gruihns Verlag).

   KIPPING, R. (1851): Masting and Rigging.- London.

E  KIPPING, R. (1853): Rudimentary Treatise on Masting, Mast-Making, and Rigging of Ships.- 150 p., London (John Weale).

E  KIPPING, R. (1854): Rudimentary Treatise on Masting, Mast-Making, and Rigging of Ships.- 150 p., London (John Weale).

E  KIPPING, R. (1864): Rudimentary Treatise on Masting, Mast-Making, and Rigging of Ships.- 169 p., London (Virtue Brothers).

B  KIPPING, R. (1903): Masting, Mast-Making and Rigging of Ships.- 211 p., London (Crosby, Lockwood, and Son).

B   LEES, J. (1979): The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War 1625-1860.- 196 p., London (Conway Maritime Press).

   LEHNHART VON LENNINGSFELD, P. (1895): Takelung und Ankerkunde für die k.u.k Kriegs-marine. Unter Anleitung des Militär-Hafencommandanten von Pola Contreadmiral Freiherr von Sterneck verfaßt von mehreren k.u.k. Seeoffizieren. Neu bearbeitet von p. L.v.L., k.u.k. Fregatten-Capitän.- 2 Bde., 436 p. + LXXXVII Taf., Wien (k.-k. Hof- und Staatsdruckerei). (ÖNB 260.662-B.Fid. = 108-049)

B  LEHNHART VON LENNINGSFELD, P. (1895): Takelung und Ankerkunde für die k.u.k Kriegs-marine. Figurentafeln. Unter Anleitung des Militär-Hafencommandanten von Pola Contreadmiral Freiherr von Sterneck verfaßt von mehreren k.u.k. Seeoffizieren. Neu bearbeitet von P. L.v.L., k.u.k. Fregatten-Capitän.- LXXXVII Taf., Wien (k.-k. Hof- und Staatsdruckerei).

B LEHMANN, T. (1920): Het tuigen van schoenerschepen. Met de daarbij behoorende werkzaamheden. Eenvoudige handleiding voor den varensman.- 142 p. Amsterdam (Wereldbibliotheek, reprint 2004).

B LEVER, D. (1819, 2nd ed.😞 The Young Sea Officer’s Sheet Anchor.- 124 p., London (Nachdruck 1963 bei E.W. Sweetman & Co., New York).

   MARQUARDT, K.H. (1986): Bemastung und Takelung von Schiffen des 18. Jahrhunderts.- 484 p., Rostock/Bielefeld (VEB Hinstorff Verlag/Verlag Delius Klasing).

   MARQUARDT, K.H. (1992): Eighteenth-Century Rigs & Rigging. English edition revised and expanded.- 330 p., London/Annapolis MD (Conway Maritime Press/United States Naval Institute Press, Annapolis).

B  MIDDENDORF, F.L. (1903): Bemastung und Takelung der Schiffe.- 401 p., Kassel (reprint 1977 by Horst Hamecher).

   Norie, J.W. [Ed.] (18xx): The Art of making Masts, Yards, Gaffs, Booms, Blocks, and Oars, as practised in the Royal Navy, and according to the most approved Methods in the Merchant- Service, including a Description of an improved Rule for Mast-makers; also a new Method by which large Yards may be made from small Trees, and repaired when sprung in the Slings, &c. -  p.,  pl., London (printed for J.W. Norie and Co.).

E  Petersson, L. (2000): Rigging Period Ship Models. A Step-By-Step Guide to the Intricacies of the Square-Rig.- 128 p., Washington (US Naval Institute Press).

B  Pilaar, J.C., Mossel, G.P.J. (1858): Handleiding tot de Kennis van Tuig, Masten, Zeilen, enz. Van het Schip.- 535 p., X pl., Amsterdam (de Wed. G. Hulst van Keulen, reprint Fontes Pers, Amsterdam).

  SCHOMBERG, A. (1832): Practical Remarks and Observations on Building, Rigging, Arming and Equipping His Majesty’s Ships of War &c..- London (Longman) (?R 2788/10)

B  SCHRAGE, K. (1989): Rundhölzer, Tauwerk und Segel.- 187 p., Herford (Koehlers Verlagsgesellschaft mbH).

   Steel, D. [Ed.] (1794): Elements and Practice of Rigging and Seamanship.- London.

B  Steel, D. [Ed.] (1818): The Art of Rigging (Nachdr. 1974 Fisher Nautical Press).- 136 p., London (Steel, Goddard & Co.).

B  STEINHAUS, C.F. (1869): Die Construction und Bemastung der Segelschiffe.- 137 p., Hamburg (L. Friedrichsen & Co., reprint 1977 Horst Hamecher, Kassel).

B  UNDERHILL, H.A. (1946): Masting & Rigging the Clipper Ship & Ocean Carrier.- 304 p., Glasgow (Brown, Son & Ferguson).

K  UNDERHILL, H.A. (1955): Sailing Ships Rigs and Rigging.- 127 p., Glasgow (Brown, Son & Ferguson).

E  VERDIER, M. (1837): Nouveau manuel complet de la marine. Premiere Partie. Gréement.- 290 p., Paris (Librairie Enciclopédique de Roret).

 

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by wefalck

[DaveBaxt]

Wow! there is a lot of work gone into compiling that list and did not imagine what I was getting into. Best regards Dave

[allanyed]

Dave,  Yes the   book is  LEES, J. (1979): The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War 1625-1860.- 196 p., London (Conway Maritime Press).

 

Eberhard, kudos on your extensive list!   Considering English ships in the 18th century, as there were  a lot of changes in the first decade or so, of all of those on your items on your list, if you could only pick two, which would they be?  Thanks

Edited April 26, 2021 by allanyed

[wefalck]

That's a difficult question for someone, who doesn't really know much about the 18th century practices. A general observation, however, is that several 'standard' works have been reprinted many times, sometimes over a period of 100 years or so, without substantial changes to the plates. Often plates from older works quite evidently have been copied in newer works.

 

Having said that, Lees would be certainly on the list, because he also provides a critical historical perspective. Otherwise, the good old Steel and Lever are rather comprehensive sources.

 

I did not search specifically for French 18th century literature, but starting from the entry on 'Marine' in Diderot's and D'Alembert's encyclopedia (which I should have included in my list, though not specifically on rigging) there are other works - the French were quite encyclopedia-minded.

 

For more practical questions also the various handbooks on seamanship that have been published over the past 200 years or so are useful. And then of course Harland's synopsis, which is is a must-have and tells you a lot about how things were actually worked, so that one understands their function.

 

I started the list in the late 1970s on paper, going through the bibliographic references of books, searching library catalogues wherever I could. The Internet now made the literature so much more accessible (although partly devaluating my collection of old books, because the information in them is now cheaply accessible on-line).  

[Dsmith20639]

Petrejus, E.W. Modelling the brig-of-war "IRENE"

[wefalck]

Yes, this is one of the various books on particular ships in which rigging details have been compiled, but it is not necessarily a book on rigging.

[allanyed]

DSmith,

Petrejus' book has always come with high regards, but as it is about a brig of war it may not be appropriate for the Bounty which Dave is building, or other ships of various sizes or eras.  Still, it is my understanding that it would be a good book to have if  building a Cruizer class brig of the early 19th century such as Irene.

[Roger Pellett]

For those modeling mid Nineteenth Century American naval vessels, which might include some kit variations of USS Constitution, Brady’s Kedge Anchor includes a very useful table describing the boats carried on board.  The footnotes to this table include descriptions of details that I have not found elsewhere.

 

The Dover reprint that I have is a good value.

 

Roger