bobandlucy Posted June 25, 2021 Share #61 Posted June 25, 2021 Lynn, I bought these pin insertion pliers from MicroMark. They work great! https://www.micromark.com/Pin-Insertion-Plier Your model is looking good! Bob lraymo and Keith Black 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Black Posted June 25, 2021 Share #62 Posted June 25, 2021 Lynn, from the same supplier is a pin vice and micro drills. I've bought both items and I'm extremely pleased with both, particularly the drills. As you progress these are going to become necessary items for your toolbox. The only thing I see wrong with pin insertion pliers is when trying to push into delicate/small stock. For me, it's much safer drilling a hole and then inserting and glueing (I use super glue. A lot of folks hate the stuff but I couldn't do without it) the eye pins/ringbolts or whatever hardware you're adding. When using CA (super glue) be sure to have Q-Tips handy to wick away any excess glue. For me, PVA glue doesn't seem to hold as well as CA in metal to wood applications. https://www.micromark.com/Double-End-Pin-Vise https://www.micromark.com/20-piece-Drill-Bit-Set-with-Plastic-Index-61-80 lraymo 1 Quote Current Builds: Wood Hull Screw Frigate USS Tennessee Decorative Carrack Warship Restoration, the Amelia Completed: Early Swift 1805 Model Restoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted June 25, 2021 Share #63 Posted June 25, 2021 PVA only works on porous materials such as wood. For metals, you have to use either epoxy (my preference) or cyanoacrylic glues. lraymo, Ryland Craze and Keith Black 3 Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandlucy Posted June 25, 2021 Share #64 Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) To clarify, I am using the pin insertion pliers with pre-drilled holes. Keith is right, I can't see doing otherwise. I have used both CA and epoxy. With CA, you have to be really quick. . . b Edited June 25, 2021 by bobandlucy Keith Black and lraymo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lraymo Posted June 26, 2021 Author Share #65 Posted June 26, 2021 Thanks for the advice. Here's my current problem... in assembling the tiller, I used a pin vise and drill (i bought that same set from MicroMark, and also a #55 drill bit)... but the instructions didn't say what size drill to use. It just said "drill a small hole", so I used the #55. The hole went well, but when I tried to insert the brass rod, it split the ends. I glued it all back together (I know it doesn't look very good), and then I tried to "flatten out" the ends to make a rivit. That didn't work either. It sortof bent the rod in between the wood. My wire-cutters "pinched" the end, which may be why I couldn't flatten the ends. I'm thinking I need broaches (to ream out holes after I drill them). And I don't really know what to use to make the rivit or to cleanly cut the rod. I only have a regular hammer (much too big!), and wirecutters. I think I need better tools! Any advice on what more to get? It's getting frustrating, I think mostly because I don't have the tools I need. Ah, the joys of learning! I photographed this at an angle to show the split wood. And I was able to use my magnifying glass AND the zoom on the camera to get up close, so you can really see what a mess I'm making! Ugh! Keith Black, Tigersteve and Cathead 3 Quote Current: Model Shipways Phantom Pilot Boat Completed: Norwegian Sailing Pram Lowell Grand Banks Dory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted June 26, 2021 Share #66 Posted June 26, 2021 (edited) Brass needs to be softened before it can be 'molded' - in this case riveted over. On a heat-proof surface you need to heat the rod to cherry -red (easier to see in dim light) and let it air-cool. This softening process is called annealing. Metal is much easier to cut and form after annealing. You can use a mini butane torch for this or (a bit of overkill!) a regular propane torch. Only cut a piece of rod a little bit longer than the finished length. In the above photo the piece is much too long. It should only protrude about 1/64" longer on each side before tapping the ends over on a hard surface. And yes, a set of broaches is a very useful thing to have around! Never force metal into wood. But you know that already. For cutting, a razor saw works well on softened brass. A small jewelers' hammer is another very useful item to have. Edited June 26, 2021 by druxey Ryland Craze, Tigersteve, Cathead and 2 others 5 Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigersteve Posted June 26, 2021 Share #67 Posted June 26, 2021 Lynn, As part of the learning experience I would suggest remaking that piece that split. I’m sure there is plenty wood in the kit. Trace your template and use a blade to make several passes along your lines. Use a metal ruler to guide your blade for the first pass or two. The groove will then guide the blade. You can sand it to shape after it is freed. it’s hard working with small parts. (frustrating!) That’s the learning curve. Trying to make everything clean and neat. Steve Ryland Craze, druxey, Cathead and 2 others 5 Quote Current: Mayflower- Model Shipways Completed: Lowell Grand Banks Dory- Model Shipways English Pinnace- Model Shipways 18th Century Longboat- Model Shipways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lraymo Posted June 26, 2021 Author Share #68 Posted June 26, 2021 Thank you, thank you for these great suggestions! Druxey, I'm going to do as you said, and I can see a trip to the local hobbyshop is warranted, as I will need broaches, mini butane torch, jewelers saw, etc. and Tigersteve, re-doing this will give me an opportunity to practice what I need to do! I'm going to go for it! Thanks! Cathead and Tigersteve 2 Quote Current: Model Shipways Phantom Pilot Boat Completed: Norwegian Sailing Pram Lowell Grand Banks Dory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Black Posted June 26, 2021 Share #69 Posted June 26, 2021 Lynn, you have to know what the hole size is that you need to drill, you need a caliper. You measure the brass wire or rod and then select the correct drill by measuring the drill shaft, not the twist. I over drill the hole a small amount so I don't have to force the wire/rod through the hole. At this time you don't need an expensive caliper. Micro Mark wants 35.00 for theirs, the below is from Harbor Freight for 20.00 but I think you can buy one at a auto parts store or hobby shop if you have one in your area. Just make sure it measures both in inches and MM. I agree with Steve regarding making a new part, it's not that difficult and your skill level is up to the task. It's just a pain in the backside. At this stage in your modeling career I'm not sure jumping through hoops to make a rivet is justified. Were I you, I'd make my replacement part, drill the correct size hole, run the brass wire through, glue using CA glue, and clip leaving extra on both sides. By extra I mean .05 inches, then take a file and dress the wire ends flat. At the scale you're working at it's going to look a whole lot like a rivet. I suggest using CA glue because a piece when glued with CA can be removed by soaking a bit with acetone. I think a piece adhered with epoxy is much harder to remove. David may have further insight regarding breaking an epoxy bond? https://www.micromark.com/Fractional-Digital-Caliper https://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-digital-caliper-with-sae-and-metric-fractional-readings-63731.html lraymo, Ryland Craze and Cathead 3 Quote Current Builds: Wood Hull Screw Frigate USS Tennessee Decorative Carrack Warship Restoration, the Amelia Completed: Early Swift 1805 Model Restoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Black Posted June 26, 2021 Share #70 Posted June 26, 2021 (edited) Lynn, you also need a good knife set. By good I don't mean the most expensive set. Micro Mark wants a lot for their set, Harbor Freight is cheaper but Micro Mark is probably better quality. With a chisel blade (see image) you can push down and cut through stock provided it's not too thick. It's much quicker than slicing or sawing. https://www.micromark.com/Excel-Super-Deluxe-Knife-Set https://www.harborfreight.com/56-piece-precision-knife-set-36410.html Edited June 26, 2021 by Keith Black lraymo, Cathead and Ryland Craze 3 Quote Current Builds: Wood Hull Screw Frigate USS Tennessee Decorative Carrack Warship Restoration, the Amelia Completed: Early Swift 1805 Model Restoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted June 26, 2021 Share #71 Posted June 26, 2021 Keith: you are correct. Epoxy is relatively insoluble in acetone, whereas CA is. Either way, acetone is nasty stuff. Only use in a very well ventilated space, no heat or flame in the vicinity and, preferably, with a NIOSH (cartridge) mask. A softened brass rod and jewelers' hammer are my preference! Keith Black, lraymo and Cathead 3 Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Black Posted June 26, 2021 Share #72 Posted June 26, 2021 David, I agree that one shouldn't use acetone carelessly. I guess I've used it so much over the years from metal prep to fiberglass work that I don't even think twice about using it, but what works for me and my old lungs is my choice. David is 100% correct, only use acetone when one has completely familiarized themselves with all the safety precautions associated with its use. druxey, Cathead and lraymo 3 Quote Current Builds: Wood Hull Screw Frigate USS Tennessee Decorative Carrack Warship Restoration, the Amelia Completed: Early Swift 1805 Model Restoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lraymo Posted June 26, 2021 Author Share #73 Posted June 26, 2021 Keith, i love your suggestions! I just ran out to the local hardware store to get a caliper! I'll drive out to the local Harbor Freight store tomorrow for the other tools and knife set. Thanks! I'm re-doing the part, per Tigersteve, but I won't attempt the rivet at this point. It's a lovely rainy day here, a nice time to work on this. I've soaked the tiller in isopropyl alcohol, taken it all apart, and now I'm making new replacement parts and will attempt to re-assemble the whole thing, with the correct hole/drill sizes, and not trying not to split the wood this time. Tnanks again! Keith Black, Cathead and druxey 3 Quote Current: Model Shipways Phantom Pilot Boat Completed: Norwegian Sailing Pram Lowell Grand Banks Dory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lraymo Posted June 27, 2021 Author Share #74 Posted June 27, 2021 Second try. Tiller turned out much better, although the brass rod is still too long (my wirecutters couldn't get close enough to the wood). Used superglue to secure the rod, filed down the rod ends, although didn't really make much of difference... but didn't want to keep working on it, concerned I might break something! The bigger problem is the tiller extension. The instructions say to use the 1/16" diameter rod as a pin in the end of the extension. However, the thickness of the extension is also 1/16". By using a drill bit that can accommodate the rod, it splits the wood, since they're both the same size. I'm thinking of just using a bit of the supplied 1/32" diameter rod... but giving up for tonight! Thanks for listening! And for providing all the good suggestions! Cathead, Ryland Craze and Keith Black 3 Quote Current: Model Shipways Phantom Pilot Boat Completed: Norwegian Sailing Pram Lowell Grand Banks Dory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Black Posted June 27, 2021 Share #75 Posted June 27, 2021 Lynn, that looks much better. You need a wire cutter that can cut as close as you want including the ability to cut flush. Below is cutter from Amazon that looks a lot like the cutters I have. You might want to search local first for this type of cutter. https://www.amazon.com/MTHKLO-Precision-Cutting-Electronics-Aluminum/dp/B083HCWKD9/ref=asc_df_B083HCWKD9/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=416652462199&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17275181636199285717&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9017256&hvtargid=pla-901408326923&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=97957278230&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=416652462199&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17275181636199285717&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9017256&hvtargid=pla-901408326923 lraymo 1 Quote Current Builds: Wood Hull Screw Frigate USS Tennessee Decorative Carrack Warship Restoration, the Amelia Completed: Early Swift 1805 Model Restoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lraymo Posted June 27, 2021 Author Share #76 Posted June 27, 2021 Thanks, I'll be perusing amazon! I've finished the tiller, having gone as far as I'm willing to go! I added the extension (after about 8 re-dos!). The final "pin" isn't in the end of the extension, but I propped it up, and I think it will look ok going forward. My next challenge, which is quite scary, is the annealing of the remaining brass rods and brass tube. Apparently I need a blowtorch, a ceramic plate, and some cutters that can handle tiny pieces of brass tubing. I need to screw up the courage to work with a blowtorch! I may try to borrow a mini torch from some friends, or maybe even try using a kitchen creme brulee torch, if that will work, but I'm WAAY out of my element when it comes to working with flame and butane fuel! Any suggestions would be welcome! Tigersteve, Cathead, Ryland Craze and 2 others 5 Quote Current: Model Shipways Phantom Pilot Boat Completed: Norwegian Sailing Pram Lowell Grand Banks Dory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted June 27, 2021 Share #77 Posted June 27, 2021 The crème brulée torch will be fine for annealing small pieces. If you already use that, you're good to go. Tigersteve, Ryland Craze, Cathead and 2 others 5 Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lraymo Posted June 29, 2021 Author Share #78 Posted June 29, 2021 I may have hit a wall. So I'm going to ask a bunch of questions, regarding the need to "anneal" the tiny brass rod and tiny brass tube in my kit. I did some online research, and it says I need to heat the brass till it turns cherry-red, then cool it by placing in a basin of water. And then clean up the pieces. So I will buy a creme brulee torch (I don't have one), but I can get one from Amazon for about $21. Does this one look ok? Amazon.com: Kitchen Torch, blow torch - Refillable Butane Torch With Safety Lock & Adjustable Flame + Fuel gauge - Culinary Torch, Creme Brûlée Torch for Cooking Food, Baking, BBQ + FREE E-book, 1 Can Included: Home Improvement To actually do the annealing, I have the following questions: Baking sheet - can I just put the tiny brass pieces on a baking sheet, and then torch them till they turn cherry-red? If I blast them, will the flame push them around on the sheet? In other words, do I need some sort of special tweezers to hold them while I blast them? And what kind should I get, as to not burn myself when I try to pick up the pieces. Once they have been super-heated, do I just need to pick them up (with the aforementioned special tweezers) and put them in a basin of water to cool them down? Rather than a baking sheet, do I need to use a ceramic plate? If so, what kind and where can I find one? What's the best way to clean the pieces (if needed). Am I on the right track here? Is this the correct process? Just trying to understand everything I need to do. Thanks! Tigersteve and Keith Black 2 Quote Current: Model Shipways Phantom Pilot Boat Completed: Norwegian Sailing Pram Lowell Grand Banks Dory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Black Posted June 29, 2021 Share #79 Posted June 29, 2021 Lynn, for starters the link gives a price of 39.97 not 21.00? I don't think a cookie sheet nor plate is going to work? I think a ceramic tile is going to work better as it's going to transfer less heat to the surface it's setting on. Below is a video link on how to anneal. druxey and lraymo 2 Quote Current Builds: Wood Hull Screw Frigate USS Tennessee Decorative Carrack Warship Restoration, the Amelia Completed: Early Swift 1805 Model Restoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lraymo Posted June 29, 2021 Author Share #80 Posted June 29, 2021 Keith, thanks for the video. Very good info. I'll be watching it a couple more times to really understand. And strangely, when I click on the Amazon link above, it still comes up with $21.99. Cyberspace is weird! Keith Black 1 Quote Current: Model Shipways Phantom Pilot Boat Completed: Norwegian Sailing Pram Lowell Grand Banks Dory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Black Posted June 30, 2021 Share #81 Posted June 30, 2021 2 hours ago, lraymo said: when I click on the Amazon link above, it still comes up with $21.99. Cyberspace is weird! Bizarro Quote Current Builds: Wood Hull Screw Frigate USS Tennessee Decorative Carrack Warship Restoration, the Amelia Completed: Early Swift 1805 Model Restoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lraymo Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share #82 Posted June 30, 2021 Strange indeed! I also found this set on Amazon. Ceramic tile, tweezers, etc for $34.50. So I'm getting closer to it! Still VERY nervous about actually doing the annealing, though. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073FZRY59/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=A3QWCV2337YR2W&psc=1 Ryland Craze 1 Quote Current: Model Shipways Phantom Pilot Boat Completed: Norwegian Sailing Pram Lowell Grand Banks Dory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted June 30, 2021 Share #83 Posted June 30, 2021 We are all nervous when trying a new thing or technique for the first time. I was terrified of silver soldering until I actually did it. It really wasn't so bad. Just remember not to touch metal until it's good and cool! Soon you won't think about it twice when annealing. Tigersteve, lraymo and Keith Black 3 Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Black Posted June 30, 2021 Share #84 Posted June 30, 2021 1 hour ago, lraymo said: I also found this set on Amazon. Ceramic tile, tweezers, etc for $34.50. Lynn, IMHO what Amazon what's is too much money. The tweezers maybe OK but the third hand stinks. There's a eBay link for a ceramic board and a much better third hand from Micro Mark and also a tweezer with stand. https://www.micromark.com/Triple-Grip-Third-Hand https://www.micromark.com/SOLDERING-TWEEZER-STAND https://www.ebay.com/itm/183401218553?hash=item2ab39081f9:g:IFUAAOSwl0xegXKl Ryland Craze and lraymo 2 Quote Current Builds: Wood Hull Screw Frigate USS Tennessee Decorative Carrack Warship Restoration, the Amelia Completed: Early Swift 1805 Model Restoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lraymo Posted July 1, 2021 Author Share #85 Posted July 1, 2021 You aren’t going to believe this story!!! I went to the local Hobby Haven (its a model shop frequented by people (mostly men) who are VERY serious about their modeling), and I asked about the annealing process, and showed them the brass rod and tube I am needing to work on. A guy who was buying something overheard me talking about needing to heat up the brass, and said, “hey, I’ve got a torch in the truck, I’ll do it!”. Turns out, he’s a plumber, and we walked out to his BIG work truck in the parking lot where he pulled out a torch and some pliers. He fired up the torch, spent about 2 minutes heating the brass, cooled the pieces in a puddle on the asphalt (its been raining a lot!), and drove off after I thanked him profusely! Not only am I extremely happy that he did the work for me, but now that I’ve seen it done, I am not so scared of it, and believe I can tackle it in the future, if needed. Also, I purchased a flush cutter while I was in the store. So I used the cutter to trim the tiller a bit more (it looks more like a rivet now), and then I attached the fore stay plate, sawed an appropriate bit of tubing to represent a hex nut, and glued it all in using CA. It’s a little bit crooked, the bend could’ve been better, and its not precise, but I am THRILLED to have done my very first piece of metal work! Thanks to all of you for your great advice and encouragement! I’m forging ahead! Tigersteve, Cathead, Keith Black and 1 other 4 Quote Current: Model Shipways Phantom Pilot Boat Completed: Norwegian Sailing Pram Lowell Grand Banks Dory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lraymo Posted July 6, 2021 Author Share #86 Posted July 6, 2021 Moving forward slowly! The stay plates went in with no problem, but the rudder gudgeons were really difficult. I tried seven or eight times to make the gudgeons. Cutting the (now annealed) tubing wasn't difficult, but gluing it to the little metal strap was extremely difficult for me. I kept gluing the completed strap & tube assembly to the transom, but then trying to line up the holes in the tubes didn't go well, and I kept pulling the tube away from the metal strap. I re-assembled the pieces, but I never succeeded in getting them attached as a unit. So I disassembled everything, scraped off all the CA glue, and put the straps back on with a "bend" that will hold the rudder pintles, rather than the little tubes. (I saw it done this way in another blog, and it looks like it can work) I have to admit I was really discouraged at this point. I just don't seem to have "steady hands" that can deal with such small pieces! So I moved on to the pintles. These seemed to work a bit better, although the sides are uneven, but I hope I can attach them to the rudder without issue. Meanwhile, I noticed that the kit seems to call for about 22 brass nails, but only 16 came with the contents, and I lost one when it fell/rolled off my work table! So, I am going to wait till all the fittings are installed, and then determine which plates/straps/etc actually need a nail to look good. Since only one side of the rudder will be seen, depending on how I display it, I can save a few nails that way, but I'm short at least 5 nails. I did notice that I could buy more brass nails, so I may do that as well! This is an exercise in patience, as I started to question my ability to work on such a small scale. But hope springs eternal, so I'm moving onward! druxey, Cathead, Keith Black and 3 others 6 Quote Current: Model Shipways Phantom Pilot Boat Completed: Norwegian Sailing Pram Lowell Grand Banks Dory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigersteve Posted July 6, 2021 Share #87 Posted July 6, 2021 It looks good. These are some really difficult parts to make. Sometimes it’s good to step away for a bit. Each attempt will be better than the previous. Steve lraymo and Keith Black 2 Quote Current: Mayflower- Model Shipways Completed: Lowell Grand Banks Dory- Model Shipways English Pinnace- Model Shipways 18th Century Longboat- Model Shipways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted July 6, 2021 Share #88 Posted July 6, 2021 You are doing fine. It's just the learning curve as you figure out how different materials 'work'. We've all been there or are still there! Tigersteve, Keith Black, Ryland Craze and 1 other 4 Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Black Posted July 6, 2021 Share #89 Posted July 6, 2021 Lynn, you're doing very well. Don't be so hard on yourself. Small parts and steady hands is a challenge, in time you'll figure out how to manage working with small parts. Build logs are always a "go to" when running into difficulties. Don't be goofy, buy the nails. I smile each time I get a notification that you've posted a new update, keep up the good work......Keith druxey, lraymo and Ryland Craze 3 Quote Current Builds: Wood Hull Screw Frigate USS Tennessee Decorative Carrack Warship Restoration, the Amelia Completed: Early Swift 1805 Model Restoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Black Posted July 6, 2021 Share #90 Posted July 6, 2021 Lynn, another tool to think about adding to your tool collection is a pair of hemostats, they're relatively inexpensive. They come as seen in the image with straight tips and also come with curved tips. I have straight tips and have never had the need for curved tips. Hemostats allow you to hold onto small pieces with a great deal of force. They will leave tool marks on your work so one needs to use with caution. If I'm adding a small piece to a bit of wire, I cut the wire long, hold the wire at the end with the hemostats, add the small bit that's being attached at the none clamped end, and bond with CA or solder. Once the bond is complete you can cut the wire to the desired length leaving no tool marks on your work. This same method of controlling small pieces can be applied when working with small wood pieces. Have a longer piece than necessary, add the small piece at the end and cut to length. You probably won't be able to use hemostats on small bits of wood as most times they will crush the wood but you can experiment, that's what scrape pieces are for. lraymo and Cathead 2 Quote Current Builds: Wood Hull Screw Frigate USS Tennessee Decorative Carrack Warship Restoration, the Amelia Completed: Early Swift 1805 Model Restoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.