hatch over a ladderway

[georgeband]

I am modelling HM schooner Whiting which was built in 1805. The Admiralty drawings for the sister ship Haddock show some features around the fore ladderway which I find tricky to interpret and would appreciate comments and advice. 

The first picture is an extract from the plan view and shows the main hatch, fore ladderway. chimney hole, and fore mast. It all looks fairly conventional. 

 

The second picture is a side view that includes the ladderway and the area aft (to the left) of it. The hatch has a lid as we would expect but there is what looks like another, lower hatch that extends aft from it. This does not appear on the plan view and might just be some light structure or even something in the bulwarks. 

 

Marquardt in 'The Global Schooner' states that a hatch cover over a ladderway would usually be hinged so that it can be opened with one hand. He is usually very good at giving references but this time it appears to be a reasoned assertion and the drawing he provides looks reasonable. The extra structure on the Admiralty drawing could be a support for the lid to keep it off the deck when it is open. I have added a copy of Marquardt's drawing here. (Buy the book if you are building a schooner!). 

 

Goodwin in 'The Naval Cutter Alert' has drawings for a sliding hatch. In the extract below (5) is the sliding cover and (3) is a fixed cover, (13) is a rail for the sliding cover. This looks like a better match for the Admiralty drawing for Haddock and I would guess that it is based on other Admiralty drawings. (Buy this book too if you are making a small vessel from late 1700s to early 1800s!)

 

My inclination is to use the sliding hatch but I have a couple of reservations. One is that a sliding cover jams easily if the force is not even on both sides. The other is that the fixed cover just goes over bare deck and does not serve a useful purpose. It has the appearance of a shallow box that cannot be opened. It could be to stop the crew tripping over the slide rails, but then it has to be strong enough for them to stand on it while working. It looks like a lot of effort to support the rails. 

 

Does anyone have information about sliding or hinged hatch covers?

 

George

[BANYAN]

Hi George, I would have to agree with your deduction/assessment that a sliding hatch better conforms with the detail shown in the Admiralty Drawing.  I can understand your apprehension, but I think these sliding hatches were used extensively and were constructed in such a way they did not jamb when operated.  Also, while occupying additional deck space (horizontal plane), this may have been necessary to minimise height (vertical plane).  This would be particularly important for operating the capstan etc where the bars needed to clear any obstructions; the flat (sliding) cover allows crew to walk on them.  Not sure what equipment was in this area based on the cropped plans you show, but may need further consideration

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited June 30, 2021 by BANYAN

[druxey]

There could be a sliding cover. However, hinged covers were often made in two halves, not a single piece as in the Marquandt illustration. Open, they took up less real estate and each half was, well, half the weight to lift.

 

 

Harriet's sliding cover, 1843 (Royal Museums Greenwich)

 

Of course, the cover could simply be grating for ventilation and a solid cover for heavy weather. The indication of the rabbet in the coaming suggests that this was the likely arrangement in this case. The 'extra' coaming on the sheer and profile that you show might be for a sliding cover. I am confused as deck plan says 'as fitted' and the sheer and profile 'as taken off' on the same date. Did the draftsman simply forget to add the aft extension, or was it fitted after the deck plan was drawn up?

[georgeband]

Thank you Pat and Druxey for your comments and sharing your knowledge. The photo of Harriet shows a fine example of a sliding hatch which will certainly influence the design I eventually recreate on Whiting. 

 

I had hoped that the extensive drawings of Haddock, and her sister Cuckoo, and the precursors of the class would help with my build of Whiting. They do, but they also leave open other questions where I have to doubt the accuracy of the draughtsman. The companionway 'box' over the main ladder is another example where the drawing shows something that does not appear to be sensible: on the drawing the sides are perpendicular to the keel, which puts them at an angle to the waterline and deck. As I said in another thread, I do not like to assume that a drawing is wrong simply because it does not agree with my interpretation of what should be done. In the case of the cover over the fore ladder way my conclusion now is that the drawing does show a sliding cover and my previous engineering assessment was flawed and too cautious. 

 

Thanks again for your help. If anyone has more photos or drawings of sliding hatch covers I would be delighted to see them. 

 

George

[Morgan]

The additional structure could possibly be an opening for ventilation above the stove, the immediate proximity to the chimney could make it a steam scuttle.

 

Gary

[georgeband]

Gary,

That's a good point about a 'steam scuttle' which is a new term for me. I had not included the full drawings of Haddock and the cooking range or stove is forward of the ladder way; the chimney hole is next to the fore mast. The additional structure aft of the ladder way is, I would guess, just to support a sliding hatch. The deck drawing does not show ventilation holes there, or anything else for that matter, so we are back to speculation. 

I imagine that the cook would want to keep the hatch at least partly open to let out the steam and to provide light so he could see what he was doing. 

 

George

[georgeband]

I visited the plans section of the National Maritime Museum yesterday and had a look at the original drawings taken from Haddock. A closer look at a photo when I got home reveals some extra clues about the 'hatch cover' that extends aft from the fore ladder way. 

 

 

Aft of the ladder way, below deck, we can see the cooking range with its chimney rising up through the deck. The top of the chimney is level with the keyhole shaped hole for the sweep port in the bulwark. The coaming that runs back from the ladder way encloses the base of the chimney. I expect that the cover for the ladder way was hinged at its aft end and rested against the chimney when it was open; it could not slide back with a chimney in the way. I had seen but not previously recognised this cooking range, guided in part by the chimney hole on the deck plan. 

 

The drawing shows 'changes as dotted lines' and forward of the ladder way, below deck, there is a mirror image of the cooking range. The top of the chimney appears as a crown above the shocked face which is the middle deadeye! The chimney aligns with the 'chimney hole' that is marked on the plan for the deck and my interpretation is that the cooking range was moved forward as part of the refit. (Some of the drawings for precursors of the Fish class before they finalised the design show the range in this aft position. I cannot check at the moment.)  The picture above shows a small coaming around the chimney in its forward position. 

 

So what happened to the old chimney hole and its coaming? A closer look shows more dotted lines between the chimney and the aft end of the original coaming; these could be the rear edge of a new, smaller cover over the old chimney hole. Some of the deck planks are shaded where there are, or were, openings in the deck but I do not know what this tells me. Would the partner planks that hold the aft mast be patched, or would they be replaced over their length from hatch to hatch? 

 

I doubt if a hinged hatch cover over the fore ladder way would be replaced by a sliding one, if only because it is a lot of work. There might be a light weight structure to stop it falling right back when it is open. My inclination now is to model Whiting this way

• Chimney in the forward position as originally planned
• Hatch cover hinged on its aft edge, with a frame to hold it at an angle when it is open
• A circle of wood in the deck where the chimney had been, possibly disguised or strengthened by the support for the open hatch cover

So what do you all think? I will happily read what you have say and might change my mind yet. There are a couple of other discoveries that I have put on my build log. 

 

George

 

[Beef Wellington]

Is there anything that suggests this shows anything other than a simple dual coaming structure, the steam scuttle above stove, and the adjoining forward one for the chimney structure.  The dotted line just seem to represent the beam separating these (?).  There seem to be many slightly different representations on models of the chimney surround being a wooden or iron structure sitting in the coaming.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Beef Wellington

[Mark P]

Good Evening George;

 

With the latest picture which you have posted, one thing becomes very clear: the structure represented aft of the hatch is not associated with a sliding hatch mechanism. This is because the deck in the way of this structure is shown with multiple shading lines, which indicate an opening in the deck. Furthermore, in the centre of this, there is quite clearly a dashed rectangle on top of the deck beam between the two compartments of this mysterious structure. 

 

Due to the proximity of the ship's stove, I would say that this is a two-grating structure, forming a chimney hole, and additional steam vent for the galley, as mentioned in earlier posts. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

 

Edit: Jason posted his reply while I was writing mine; it would seem that we both have the same thought. 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Mark P

[georgeband]

Jason, Mark,

 

Thank you for your comments. I must agree that you sound right with your interpretation of that part of the drawing, aft of the ladder way. However, there is also a mirror-image cooking range forward of the ladder way. One of these cooking ranges shows what it was like as-built, and the other after the refit modifications. My thoughts are that the original position was aft of the ladder way and the refit position forward. My reasons are

• The deck plans ZAZ6117 show a chimney hole above the forward location. There is not even a smudge for the aft location
• ZAZ6117 for the lower deck shows the base for the cooking range, labelled as 'fire place', forward of the ladder way and a scuttle for coals next to it
• The plans originally sent to Bermuda, ZAZ6114, have the cooking range in the aft position. The deck plan shows a square opening aft of the ladder way (steam vent?) and another one aft of that for the chimney, see below. (They also show a windlass which was not fitted to Haddock. Please see my build log for new evidence about this.)
• The drawing for Cuckoo, ZAZ6320, is dated January 1806, three months after the Haddock drawings. This drawing was used to build the Bird class in England. The copy I have is not very clear but it shows the cooking range and chimney in the forward position only. I cannot see the extra hatch or coaming aft of the ladder way but this might be because of the poor resolution on my drawing. 

I think in summary that everyone is right. Jason's and Mark's interpretations are backed up totally by the ZAZ6114 drawing (and other evidence no doubt) but Haddock went through a refit. My interpretation is that the cooking range and associated hatches started as in ZAZ6114 but were moved to a forward location during her refit. 

 

Which still leaves me with the problem of how to model the patched-over hatches aft of the ladder way. 

 

The pictures below are extracts from ZAZ6114, the drawings sent to Bermuda

[Dr PR]

George,

 

This is a little late, but I will post it for your information. Here are photos of a sliding hatch on the Lady Washington. This type hatchway was/is very common. The part under where the hatch slides back isn't wasted space - it is headroom as you descend the ladder.

 

 

 

 

The top is not always sloping. On some vessels it is parallel to the deck.

 

 

[georgeband]

Phil,

 

Thanks for the two photos which show a well crafted original. They are not too late and serve as inspiration for the aft ladder way on Whiting which did have a large 'box' over it. I still don't know whether that one will be sliding or hinged on my model unless some letter or log book appears with a revelation. 

 

George