Cutty Sark by Kevin-the-lubber - Revell - 1:96 - PLASTIC

[Richard Dunn]

I have sent you a PM with link to file.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Thanks Richard, I’ll download that in the morning.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Downloaded now Richard, thanks. From a first look and general modelling perspective there doesn't seem to be too much difference, does there and as I don't have the Jordan plan and the Campbell plans are clear, I'll use these as the reference. The overnight print of two full deck sections was equally successful so I'll revisit making a scratch deck and furniture from Campbell, but use whatever I can of the kit. Or do both actually, since I'm halfway through painting the revell deck, and just see which I like most.

 

This test is a bit rough'n'ready, with more care in glueing the planks would all sit dead flat, but I just wanted to see how it would sand and look with rattle-can primer (still wet here!) and avoid getting it stuck to my workmat, so didn't pay too much attention. Probably need to start using the thick, slower setting CA for things like these. I haven't done much filament printing for many months and I imagine the PETG has a bit of moisture in it now (it's quite hydroscopic), so there was some lifting at the outer edges (losing adhesion to the build plate) which should be easy to correct after cooking the filament for a few hours. When I do this for real I'll may stick it to a backing sheet of 1mm evergreen. It proves the possibility though, that I can get a good planking effect and maintain dimensional integrity at full model size and, with some light sanding, get a quite acceptable top finish. So, next job, design the planking pattern a bit more true to life including margin planks around the hatches etc. Meanwhile, time to re-make the pin rails and some very small deadeyes. I'm thinking I might cut out the gussets in the revell hull and the rest of the pinrail where it extends back into the poop deck, make these integral to the new pin rail, to give some support; even though the gussets aren't true to the CS, they're a sensible alternative at this scale. Kind of wish I hadn't already glued the hull together now, this would have been easier as two halves.

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Kevin-the-lubber

[Kevin-the-lubber]

This comes under the heading "Tips for the Ungifted". People like me, who have absolutely no artistic ability whatsoever. I'll tell you a funny story about that, another time. To state the obvious, I drew the plank frequency in software, did a screen grab being careful to go precisely from one outer line to the other, pasted into word, scaled to right size, printed on paper (imagine, paper, not resin!), cut strips, sellotaped these in place and gave myself nice lines to follow. Being a brit and having done 6 lines it is of course now time for a cup of tea and some resting. I expect I'll have it finished in another 3 or 4 hours 🙂

 

 

[Kevin-the-lubber]

And the main part finished, the rest can wait until tomorrow evening. (Only 2 hours - the training is paying off). 

[plankncaulk]

Kevin-

Sure seems like a lot of work for a "gotta have it on the windowsill NOW dammit!" kit but it's looking great so far. Clue a semi-Luddite in- I assume the deck and furniture are made using forms of 3D printing?

Regards,

Tim

[Kevin-the-lubber]

I have a weakness for experimentation! Yes, no true scratch building here, either 3D printed or will be bought. Received Hismodels’ PE signage yesterday, really beautiful bit of etching.

[Hubac's Historian]

On 1/7/2022 at 4:40 PM, Richard Dunn said:

I just checked and he has updated the older one.

see here
https://scaledecks.com/sailing-ships
Also not sure if you know this but She was sheathed in Muntz metal not copper, Muntz is about 60% copper and 40% zinc but colour is closer to brass, if you are trying to be accurate you would want to mix a bit of Copper paint into Brass.
The Sark as she is now is done in muntz but has a higher zinc content than older muntz so is a bit yellower than the old Muntz.

That is fascinating, as I was just recently marveling at the museum display of the ship, with viewers able to walk right below the ship.  I thought the plating seemed extra-bright, but I figured that had more to do with the camera than the actual color.

 

Richard, as you seem to be a Sark enthusiast, can you offer any insight into the engineering behind the current museum display; one would think that this kind of suspension might cause undue stress on an old wooden hull.

 

Obviously, people much smarter than myself have put engineering thought into this, so I wonder how it works.  Hands-down, though, it is a spectacular and inspiring display.

[Hubac's Historian]

I’m up to date, now, Kevin.  I am fascinated by your inability to resist the well-trod path. I always liked this kit, and I can already see that you are going to transform it into something much better than the sum of its parts - because the model will be made, mostly, of your printed parts.  The deck housing looks super-clean!

 

Bon courage!, as the French say 👍

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Richard is a bit more than an enthusiast Marc, but I’ll leave it to him to share his history. The pandemic thing has made me become very lazy about going out and about and, despite it being only an hour away, I still haven’t visited the ship. Perhaps when the weather is a little warmer.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

I’m not planning on transforming it that much! Although it’s tempting to use Richards tutorial to remake the hull, I know that will suck up weeks or months so, unless my current antics with the dremel go pear-shaped, I’ll settle for some fairly modest modifications on this build and treat this as R&D for when I feel competent to try something a bit more ambitious. A good thing about 3D design work is that it keeps forever and is very recyclable.

[Ian_Grant]

3 hours ago, Hubac's Historian said:

 

Richard, as you seem to be a Sark enthusiast, can you offer any insight into the engineering behind the current museum display; one would think that this kind of suspension might cause undue stress on an old wooden hull.

 

Obviously, people much smarter than myself have put engineering thought into this, so I wonder how it works.  Hands-down, though, it is a spectacular and inspiring display.

Marc,  she is a composite clipper with teak planking on an iron frame. The steel spars suspending her are welded/bolted to her frame. When you tour her now, you enter through the hold and they explain that metal bits that you see painted a different colour are not part of the actual ship. I agree that it is much nicer than her old display. This picture shows how fancy the hold is now.

 

[Hubac's Historian]

Okay, well, that makes a ton of sense.  Thank you for clarifying, Ian.  I hope, some day, to visit her again.  It was 1995, when I last passed through that area.  The ship wasn’t open to visitors, back then, as I recall.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

5 minutes ago, Hubac's Historian said:

It was 1995, when I last passed through that area.

About the same for me - hate going to London! I lie of course, but only the first bit.

[Hubac's Historian]

Well, London may not be particularly tall, but it is sprawling.  I remember being amazed by the sheer size of the place and the diversity of its different neighborhoods.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

26 minutes ago, Hubac's Historian said:

diversity of its different neighborhoods.

Yes there is that, though the differences become less noticeable year by year. I worked in the east end on and off in the ‘70’s, when it was seen as rough as nails, but as is often the case, where there’s poverty there’s also a lot of warmth and kindness. It’s the city that I don’t like very much; too fast, too busy, too transactional.

[shipman]

I lived in London right through the 1980's. A lot to see and do. However, I hated the place, no matter where you go it's a true s### hole. Harsh words perhaps.

Had many visits since for various reasons since, but never regretted leaving the capitol of 'Rip off Britain'.

The present Cutty Sark 'Attraction' is a prime example.

In the '80's I spent many happy hours leisurely wandering around admiring the ship in its slightly shabby state (before the fire and 'restoration'). At least the entire vessel was visible. Somehow the old appeal is missing.

Looking forward to the rest of this build.

Now the big museums have have thrown what were the world premier ship model collections to the four winds, I'm hard put to find justification for ever going there again.

[BikerMart]

Shipman - I see a 'Triumph' logo in the background of your profile pic. Are you a past or present owner? Off-topic, I know!

[Ian_Grant]

1 hour ago, shipman said:

I lived in London right through the 1980's. A lot to see and do. However, I hated the place, no matter where you go it's a true s### hole. Harsh words perhaps.

Had many visits since for various reasons since, but never regretted leaving the capitol of 'Rip off Britain'.

The present Cutty Sark 'Attraction' is a prime example.

In the '80's I spent many happy hours leisurely wandering around admiring the ship in its slightly shabby state (before the fire and 'restoration'). At least the entire vessel was visible. Somehow the old appeal is missing.

Looking forward to the rest of this build.

Now the big museums have have thrown what were the world premier ship model collections to the four winds, I'm hard put to find justification for ever going there again.

We took the kids to the UK and started in London for a while. I hated it too! Nowhere near as much fun as Paris. Incidentally, we made an effort to get off the tourist track in London. Highlights included the "Old Operating Museum", and especially a short train ride to "Bletchley Park" where they show one of the enigma code breaking machines in action and explain it all. Very interesting and sparsely attended. As for the rest of it, meh!

 

The Cutty Sark, I don't really like the view from outside with the glass arcing upward; might have been better like a flat "sea".

 

I may be biased by the fact that I went to the Kensington Science Museum solely to see Longridge's model of the Victory only to find that not only it, but the entire model ship gallery was gone and replaced by some crap about the internet. When I asked about it, the nice lady working there told me that, "Oh, we get lots of people asking what happened to the model ships, they must have been very popular". 🙄  But she had no idea where they might be now. Then I went to the National Maritime Museum hoping to see some models. Very disappointed by the new museum; the usual huge empty atrium in the architecture to awe the visitor but very little to actually see. I was through it in about 45 minutes as there is nothing to read about etc. Apparently all the navy artifacts were moved to the new Royal Navy Museum beside Victory in Portsmouth, but I didn't know that. Might get there someday.

 

Modern museums are a pet peeve of mine as they seem to spend hundreds of millions building an architect's fantasy only to discover that the vast atriums etc take up so much volume that display space is limited. A prime example is the History Museum here in Ottawa.

 

I've been in some museums in Austria and Germany in beautiful old buildings, internally just chains of interconnected rectangular rooms; no doubt a modern architect would be dismissive, but you know what they were crammed with interesting stuff. Also what is anathema to modern museums, lots of printed explanations to read, and not an interactive button-pushing display in sight

 

Sorry Kevin, for sidetracking your log but Shipman touched a nerve. Your decks look great by the way!

 

 

[shipman]

Yes it's off topic, BikeMart, but I've always had bikes.

Had an old BSA for 30 years and a hand built Ducati since '84.

Sorry Kevin.

[Richard Dunn]

You do have the Jordan ones, they are the wrinkled ones and the dark ones are the Lloyds ones but also jordan.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

No need for apologies chaps, former biker here too, likewise on the same page about most big cities and glossy museums. Time was when every city was unique, whereas these days they are just interchangeable hell-holes. Don’t hold your breath on the new one at Portsmouth, I was through that in 45 minutes myself a few months back and don’t remember seeing any models. They do have a fine collection of figureheads though, and an exquisite royal barge. Nothing to do with ships or modelling, but if you like old style museums crammed with artefacts and curiosities, an old favourite is the Pitt’s River in Oxford.

 

I have another little gizmo arriving tomorrow, a filament dryer, which will see me starting on printing the deck proper. My preferred filament, PETG, is hygroscopic and misbehaves once it’s sucked in some moisture. I’d all but abandoned filament printing over the last year other than for utilitarian objects, but some like for like filament vs resin tests on pin rails this week have made me reassess. Filament is better than I (mis)remembered.
 

Richard, I suspect I’ve been dim and the file you’ve sent has layers. I’ll check later. If I stuff up on hacking bits off the hull - perfectly possible - I may yet have to either go the whole hog or get a second kit.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

59 minutes ago, Kevin-the-lubber said:

the file you’ve sent has layers

As indeed it does, thank you for that. The differences are more apparent now, through toggling and I'll have to study them more carefully.

[Richard Dunn]

Yep it has layers.
Museums seem to be forgetting nautical history across the board. even now I am getting a museum in new Zealand to find the Wahine builders model I saw and photographed in 1986.
How does a museum lose a 3m builders model of a ship that has such a part of history in NZ. even the anniversary's of her sinking are in the news every year.
 

[Ian_Grant]

Oh damn, we were in Oxford too but didn't know about pitt's River.  I'm still kicking myself because we also went to Bath and I didn't know the "Great Britain" was nearby!

[Richard Dunn]

On 1/13/2022 at 11:54 PM, Hubac's Historian said:

Richard, as you seem to be a Sark enthusiast, can you offer any insight into the engineering behind the current museum display; one would think that this kind of suspension might cause undue stress on an old wooden hull.

The structure that supports the Cutty Sark is a cantilever system, I will try to explain it as it was explained to me.
Along both sides of the hull are cantilevers that are each made of 2 primary girders,one attaches to the ship at waterline and mounts higher up to ground, the other attaches at same point and attaches to ground at the base  lower down forming a triangular crane like frame, when 2 of these are placed either side and downward pressure applied to them the lock up and tighten the grip on the area between the frames, this is counteracted by quite heavy beams running through the ship that effectively the ship hangs from, there are also considerable doubler frames that have been added to the rusting original frames but they carry very little weight other than the local stress of the ships fabric itself like the planking and adjacent structure.

Personally I hate what they did, I think the lines are lost and the canopy looks nothing like a sea or wave, since when does ocean look like the ship is sitting in a soft sponge.
The way it's been positioned shows less than the normal free-board  as well anyway which gives a bad impression of the hull.
Just my opinion but hate it.

Of course this is a simplistic explanation and this image shows it better.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Richard Dunn

[Hubac's Historian]

‘Much appreciated, Richard!  That is a very good explanation, indeed.  I can appreciate your point about the lines being lost - appreciation of the hull as a whole.  I laughed at your wet sponge comment - here’s an emoji proving so 😄

 

Regarding the absence of models in these historically model-heavy museums, I also wonder where all the models have gone.  Does someone have the H.M.S. Prince dockyard model sitting on their IKEA hutch, somewhere? The models weren’t thrown away. 

 

Personally, I cultivate elaborate fantasies of selling my eventual 1:48 model of Soleil Royal, 1670 to La Musee de la Marine, to be displayed right alongside Tanneron’s model into perpetuity.  If this is the trend in maritime museums, it doesn’t seem likely that there will be any interest in that!  Dare to dream, prepare to cry 🥲

Edited January 14, 2022 by Hubac's Historian

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Maybe not a museum Marc, but I bet you’d sell yours for a pretty penny.

[Hubac's Historian]

Well, I’ll save those dreams for another day. In the meantime, I’ll enjoy watching you build the Sark.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Over the last couple of weeks I've been tinkering with printing a new deck with disguised joints and negative plank lines, and pinrails with some embellishments. The latter will be for it's own update as and when I'm there.

 

For now, the deck, which is printed on a filament printer. I wanted to see if it was worth the effort of remaking this, bearing in mind the kit part (top of first picture) has come out reasonably well so far.

 

So, printed in 5 pieces; the 4 you see here, and a quarterdeck (work in progress). The bowsprit socket is printed separately in resin; although the top of the deck has an elliptical profile (thanks Richard) the bottom is flat and, by making all the protruding parts separately, this is easy to print and sand. A bit slow though - the bigger sections take about 6 hours each to print. The white card is 0.5mm evergreen and the sections are glued to this as well as each other using CA. This is to ensure the bottoms of the sections are perfectly aligned, thus making the top also aligned. These sections slot together very nicely, no undue play nor tightness and only a little bit of post-printing cleanup of the joints required. The radial lines you see are layer lines, as the thickness varies along the centreline but is constant at the edges.

 

 

Trial fit. Not bad. some slight 'air' at the prow which I may or may not improve on. As it's hidden by the foredeck it doesn't matter. The quarterdeck needed more work, what you see here is a new profile sat on top of the test piece as this was very gappy. I've needed to make it about 2 or 3 mm longer and it will now be nearer the Campbell plans than Revell and I'll remake all the furniture (which I'd probably have done anyway).  The monster clamp isn't there for force, it was just what was to hand to lightly squeeze the hull so I could get true profile measurements! The pink strip is the WIP pin rail, you can see the butchery to the inner hull where I've removed all the interior mouldings. Pity I'd started painting!

 

A few pics now of it sanded smooth. I used my normal woodwork orbital sander just to see whether this destroyed the plank lines as these are only 0.3mm deep, but it was fine. PTEG is tough material!

 

The joint lines between the foremast and hatch are a real joint. I haven't washed out the dust from sanding yet, it gives a good indication of what it should look like after painting and inking in the lines. The joint lines are almost indistinguishable from the others in the picture, which are just 0.2mm wide printed grooves. Clearly this is still well out of scale but, at scale, the lines would be near invisible. (Note to self, to move the joints on the margin planks by a few mm, and make them look like the other plank ends: it will disguise them better). 

 

same here across the fore cabin: the line across this will be hidden by the cabin

 

All told I'm pleased with how this is shaping up and will go with the replacement deck. It's really not very much work in itself and I'd already started remaking much of the deck furniture. So, drifting away from the 'build out of the box' but happily so.