Cutty Sark by Kevin-the-lubber - Revell - 1:96 - PLASTIC

[Kevin-the-lubber]

The strange thing about these kits - because it’s equally true of just about all of them that I’ve read up on - is that a lot of work would have gone into the design and the ‘errors’ must have been conscious choices to stray from the plans. I understand why you’d do that around fine points of detail that might be difficult to mould, or where you want to recycle parts like the boats, but not those like the deck height.

 

I did and maybe still do have thoughts of selling the Victory stern as an aftermarket kit, but haven’t even thought about this for any of the Cutty stuff, mostly because I haven’t done anything yet that solves a major problem. It’s all just making it a little more detailed etc. However, a friend has offered me use of his laser machine and very large filament printer, which I’ll make use of when I do the Kearsage, and if that goes well I might revisit the Cutty.

[shipman]

Part of the fun/challenge when building these kits (as opposed to assembling OOB) is correcting the errors. on what are after all 40/50 year old products designed within the limits of the market at the time.

 

The best we can hope for is a complete re-design. Can't see that happening.

 

One thing I'm not keen on is resin detail upgrades that ad disproportionate cost to a project which often can be resolved with minimal effort and cost.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Resin upgrading is cheap as chips. But if I was doing this to sell and make some profit, I'd need to factor in the development time, running costs and low volumes. That's what pushes the price up; and up further still once you sell through a third party as they also need a cut. It's like everything - you makes your choice and pays your money.

 

I think within 5 or 10 years you'll have the option to buy complete, incredibly accurate, detailed resin kits but they'll probably be expensive because each one will be being printed individually. We're already seeing kits where you get the files and print them yourself, but I think that may be trickier once people start sharing the files.

[Veszett Roka]

Airfix (Heller) has a 'Special Edition' product line, which neglect some parts to provide space for kit bashing. For instance the Special Edition Cutty Sark kit has no moulded handrails, stanchions, no prefabricated ratlines - but the kit has vacuum-formed styrene sails, i believe because some of us using paper sails hardened with thinned PVA glue which can use those sails as template.

[shipman]

Airfix and Heller cut their ties some time ago.

 

The 'Special Edition' releases are simply later boxing of the same kits, all the range of sailing ships dropped the pre-fabricated ratlines.

The vacu-formed sails were always included, except the very first offering of the 'Endeavour' which had very crude furled sails on the yards.

 

There are numerous excellently detailed resin kits of the post sailing ship era. Without exception they are invariably expensive, for whatever reason. Working with these kits can, be a toxic mix if you aren't careful.

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by shipman
Changed one word and one new paragraph.

[Hubac's Historian]

1 hour ago, shipman said:

Working with these kits can, be a toxic mix if you aren't careful.

 

 

What so you (metaphorically?) mean, Shipman?

[bcochran]

1 hour ago, Hubac's Historian said:

 

What so you (metaphorically?) mean, Shipman?

Working with resin can be unhealthy if you are not careful.  Sanding or sawing resin can make tiny particles that can get in your lungs.  It is always  a good thing to were a mask when making resin dust.

[Veszett Roka]

8 hours ago, shipman said:

 all the range of sailing ships dropped the pre-fabricated ratlines.
 

In 2006, Hornby acquisited them from Humbrol (who has the Heller name since 1981), and started to issue 'new' kits under Airfix name. As far as i know, the 'special edition' issues are revised kits from this era, removing the incorrect parts and/or few pieces to allow bashing. I have a yet boxed Cutty special edition without molded stanchions, those are surely exists on the standard kit.

Since 1986, all Airfix ship come without the plastic ratline, and has the adjustable ratline-maker jig instead. Other manufacturers, mainly Revell still use the plastic prefabricated ratlines. Nowadays many kits has nylon ratlines, those are looks like some kind of dark grey rubber. Never worked with them though.
Cut the long story short, i don't know if any manufacturer comes out with newly designed and molded sailing ship kits. I have the feeling that i saw all their kits already.

Shipman, if you have better informations, please share, i'm really interested.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Veszett Roka
correcting some typos

[shipman]

Veszett, hi.

 

You made a good summary above. As far as I know there hasn't been a new tool sailing ship released for decades.

 

In my enthusiasm I have suggested to Airfix that they design a 1:48 18th century armed cutter, which would be capable of being built to the highest standard, potentially incorporating every detail, including working rigging.

 

Such a kit would fit the boxing common to their sailing ship range, use no more raw materials etc.

 

Unfortunately Airfix (and the rest of the plastic ship industry) have no enthusiasm for such a project.

It would seem they regard ship models having little commercial potential.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Resin kits are bound to be expensive, in the short term at least. It takes seconds to injection mould parts for normal plastic kits and I imagine manufacturers could knock out a batch of a ship, say 500, in a day or two. The plastic itself is probably quite cheap as well. Even with industrial printing kit (cost = £10k or £15k upwards) I suspect the same volume could take weeks if not months to produce in resin. Bringing it down to the home printer level, if I set out to model and sell a complete resin cutty sark (and let's assume by then I had complete mastery of the 3D software on both the design and printing side, which I certainly don't at this point), I think it would take maybe 3 - 6 months to design all the parts and then at least a week to print each single kit. The materials wouldn't cost that much, maybe £100, but you'd be hard-pressed to sell these kits at even £300 - £400 and make any profit.

 

I have no idea what the market is like for mainstream plastic kits but suspect it's much smaller than when I was a boy. Back then, happiness was spending all my pocket money on an airfix spitfire or whatever and, if I was lucky, getting the endeavour for Christmas. But these days I expect it's more about the latest phone game etc. My guess is that it's become more niche, more people like us, who spend months and years on each model and spend far more on the extras than on the kits themselves, so I'm not surprised no-one seems keen on investing heavily in new, large age-of-sail kits.

[Ian_Grant]

All the guys I see at my local model shops are older. By and large the new generation just isn't interested, or has no exposure to dad at home making things. Nor do they get shop classes at school any more, at least here in Canada. Around 1970 or so, we were brazing with oxy-acetylene torches in grade 7 or 8 shop class. Today, nada; liability you know.........

 

The world has moved on. My dad's trade of tool and die maker now features CAD'ed CNC-everything, not the experienced tradesman cutting from a drawing in such a way that the gear backlash effect is minimized. And you're now considered a cabinetmaker if you can lift melamine panels off the router table and run the edger machine to tape the exposed edges.

 

There are maybe six people in Ottawa who make sailing ship models; I don't know any firsthand. I doubt manufacturers could recoup their tooling investment if they made a new ship model. It's sad, but 3D printing is on its way to help those interested. Soon we will make our own kits with software. Just the same route blazed in so many other areas.

 

 

[shipman]

Kevin, I agree with every point you made.

 

Same goes for Ian's.

 

I dare not mention to anyone I know of my interest in models, for fear of hoots of derision.

If you show someone, the usual comment is ''That's nice, did you make it yourself?''

When you say how long it took, you get gasps of disbelief.

Instant gratification is the thing today. All the effort goes into watching TV.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

I think this will kind of go full circle. Long before plastic kits even existed, people were making models. Today, we call it scratch building. Plastic kits came along, with a huge range of models which were more than good enough for their time, and everyone was making them. That supply line is kind of drying up and in any case the quality doesn't match today's expectations. Along comes 3D and, in time, individuals and then companies will produce new kits including of ships that were never available in plastic. Just because we can, whereas previously we couldn't. And at whatever scale you desire. You want 1:700 sir, I'll send that to you this afternoon; 1:100, next week. These are very early days for 3D model-making but people are going to become exceptionally good at it and some will probably turn it into a good business. I rather suspect us oldies like the plastic kits because it's what we grew up on, there's a bit of nostalgia in the mix. I wouldn't be at all surprised if, in 50 years time, our equivalents are hunting out and sharing the files for Fred's HMS Lively or Ville de Paris that he produced in 2030.

 

Ian, I don't think the absence of metalwork and woodwork in schools is really related to health & safety but more about what's current. My daughter did 'design & technology', in which they made things using a laser cutter, cast things using resin and all that kind of thing. Back when I was at school in the '70's, we did the trades, I think in part because that's where many of us were destined to end up. I became a sheetmetalworker, others in my year became carpenters, builders, etc. In the early '80's I could quit a job at 9am and be working again the next day, sometimes even the same day. Nowadays there are hardly any factories or SME's doing that kind of thing. It is sad in a way, but in much the same way as the old guys when I was an apprentice lamented the passing of smithing, which even by then had become a niche, arty kind of occupation. It's as you say, the world has moved on.

 

Anyway, enough of that - for light relief, an extremely bad 3D jolly boat (thanks shipman);

 

In my defence I am doing the 3D equivalent of thinking out loud, just playing around a little to understand how to turn sketches into an extremely nice 3D jolly boat, while sorting out the health and safety side of my printing setup.

[bcochran]

10 hours ago, shipman said:

Veszett, hi.

 

You made a good summary above. As far as I know there hasn't been a new tool sailing ship released for decades.

 

In my enthusiasm I have suggested to Airfix that they design a 1:48 18th century armed cutter, which would be capable of being built to the highest standard, potentially incorporating every detail, including working rigging.

 

Such a kit would fit the boxing common to their sailing ship range, use no more raw materials etc.

 

Unfortunately Airfix (and the rest of the plastic ship industry) have no enthusiasm for such a project.

It would seem they regard ship models having little commercial potential.

My wish would be that they make a model of a 28 gun  ship like the Surprise from Master and Commander in say 1/48 scale.  The Constitution has too many guns, as does the Victory, though I hope to work on both before I meet Davie Jones. 

 

The actual Surprise is pretty realistic, except for below decks.  The gun deck has a middle isle that is lower than the level that the guns sit on, so you can stand up and walk through.  I've visited it many times in San Diego and wanted a model of it.  I know there is a wooden kit made, but I doubt my ability to build it well. I may try, though.

Edited May 19, 2022 by bcochran

[bcochran]

4 hours ago, shipman said:

Kevin, I agree with every point you made.

 

Same goes for Ian's.

 

I dare not mention to anyone I know of my interest in models, for fear of hoots of derision.

If you show someone, the usual comment is ''That's nice, did you make it yourself?''

When you say how long it took, you get gasps of disbelief.

Instant gratification is the thing today. All the effort goes into watching TV.

I have been playing with model trains since the 1950s.  Back then, you made your equipment. You bought wheels and couplers, but everything else was scratch built, even engines. Then came crude kits and later more accurate ones.  Today everything is highly detailed and comes from China and is called ready to roll.  As soon as a new train car or engine comes out, the "experts" on the model train forums have listed all its inaccuracies.  They couldn't begin to imagine the junk we loved to run in the 50s and 60s.

[bcochran]

5 hours ago, Ian_Grant said:

All the guys I see at my local model shops are older. By and large the new generation just isn't interested, or has no exposure to dad at home making things. Nor do they get shop classes at school any more, at least here in Canada. Around 1970 or so, we were brazing with oxy-acetylene torches in grade 7 or 8 shop class. Today, nada; liability you know.........

 

The world has moved on. My dad's trade of tool and die maker now features CAD'ed CNC-everything, not the experienced tradesman cutting from a drawing in such a way that the gear backlash effect is minimized. And you're now considered a cabinetmaker if you can lift melamine panels off the router table and run the edger machine to tape the exposed edges.

 

There are maybe six people in Ottawa who make sailing ship models; I don't know any firsthand. I doubt manufacturers could recoup their tooling investment if they made a new ship model. It's sad, but 3D printing is on its way to help those interested. Soon we will make our own kits with software. Just the same route blazed in so many other areas.

 

 

I think the tooling for the Cutty Sark was made by hand. 

[shipman]

Yes, all the kits back then were derived from a larger 'master' model and a pantograph system was used to make a mold.

 

Airfix used to highlight the process in their magazine, Revell did something similar as part of their publicity.

I'll try and dig a bit for that.

[Ian_Grant]

4 hours ago, shipman said:

Yes, all the kits back then were derived from a larger 'master' model and a pantograph system was used to make a mold.

 

Airfix used to highlight the process in their magazine, Revell did something similar as part of their publicity.

I'll try and dig a bit for that.

That would be interesting to read about!

[Kevin-the-lubber]

10 hours ago, bcochran said:

My wish would be that they make a model of a 28 gun  ship like the Surprise from Master and Commander in say 1/48 scale

Someone on here is scratchbuilding the surprise at the moment, based on the book. I’m not sure of the scale. The trouble with 1/48 would be a) having the room for it when done and b) the extra detail required. If I ever 3D develop a model like the CS from the hull upwards, I think I’d aim for about 1/75; big enough to overcome the ‘but it’s so tiny’ issue but just about small enough to display at home.

[shipman]

A little insight......

https://www.airplanesandrockets.com/magazines/american-modeler/revell-plastic-kits-made-american-modeler-may-1957.htm

[Kevin-the-lubber]

There you have it. I don't feel nearly as bad now about my verrrrryyyyy slow pace. What you're doing in 3D modelling is essentially the same thing but with far fewer cuts & bruises and of course you can correct your mistakes much more easily. 

 

[wemattson]

Shipman, Cool article, thanks for sharing.

[rwiederrich]

I worked at an injection mold plant in Oregon, that made parts for Dental chairs..(Quality plastics for Adec Dental).

The tool/mold makers would sit in their clean rooms and *Carve* or inscribe their tools.....come down to the floor and try inject them for accuracy.

 

I operated several injection machines.  It was fascinating work.  We even made model kits.  I collected lots of *throw* away parts and such.  It was fun as much as it was quite interesting.

 

Rob

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Another story from my youth. When I was about 16 or 17 years old, we had a job to install some kind of smelting equipment in the Lesney toy plant in Essex. They used to make all the diecast matchbox cars and did a load of injection moulding as well. All of which was amazing to see; the scale of the machines (huge), the speed, the noise, the everything. All of which is just background. For some reason we had to install this thing overnight, when the night shift was on. Like just about every night shift factory I ever worked in - quite a few, as the money was always better - the supervision levels were minimal and the place was half deserted. And that was the problem - half of it was not deserted, and that half was entirely made up of gangs of middle-aged, feral women. Me, I was this baby faced, innocent young boy, and for some reason one pack took it upon themselves to utterly terrorise me. Oh the language, the innuendo, the frankly terrifying descriptions of what they intended! I hid in the toilets, hid behind machinery, hid everywhere I could think of, and in the end I had to volunteer for the worst possible job, being up on the roof installing the extraction cowling. Of course it was lashing with rain and freezing cold, this is 1970's Britain! We did have a little torch though, sure proof that we were coming out of the recession. I'm not sure what was more scary - the fear of falling 60 feet through the ancient asbestos and killing myself, or falling and landing in the middle of the howling pack. I expect they hadn't had so much fun for years and would have probably been more inclined to give me a glass of milk and a jam sandwich, but I refused point blank to go within a mile of that place thereafter.

[shipman]

So, it's true what they say about 'Essex' Girls.

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

On 5/19/2022 at 2:15 PM, bcochran said:

My wish would be that they make a model of a 28 gun  ship like the Surprise from Master and Commander in say 1/48 scale.  The Constitution has too many guns, as does the Victory, though I hope to work on both before I meet Davie Jones. 

 

The actual Surprise is pretty realistic, except for below decks.  The gun deck has a middle isle that is lower than the level that the guns sit on, so you can stand up and walk through.  I've visited it many times in San Diego and wanted a model of it.  I know there is a wooden kit made, but I doubt my ability to build it well. I may try, though.

  The Surprise (guess that name will be permanent, with the popularity of the film ... too bad they did not make the sequel) was originally the HMS Rose - famous in Colonial Rhode Island history.  It was independently build (by contract) by a good friend of mine, John Fitzhugh Millar (now of Williamsburg, Virginia) back in the early 70's.  This was around the time the repro. of the sloop Providence was built in preparation for the Bicentennial.  John explained how expensive maintaining and sailing a ship the size of the Rose (now Surprise) can be, and although leased for a couple films (one of which was Man Without a Country), sold and repossessed twice - he was lucky to about break even when a sale finally went through.

 

  John did come away with a real treasure - for he met his future wife Cathy while conducting sea shanty sessions aboard the Rose, and the couple run a B&B in Williamsburg to this day, where the inestimable JF Millar has written a number of books on colonial history, architecture and art (13 Colonies Press).  

[Hubac's Historian]

Fascinating article, Shipman.  I believe today’s tech opens the door for new and exciting modeling  subjects that may just spark the interest of the younger generations.  My generation (X) was probably one of the last where plastic model-making was still a common thing for young boys.  Gen Y, less so, and after that - model-making becomes very niche, among specialty outlets like WarHammer, where there’s a strategy game connected to the hobby.  My kids watch me pour all kinds of time into my projects.  My son has made one plane and started a car, but he isn’t drawn to it as we were at the same age (10).  Perhaps the new path is something akin to what Kevin is doing, where the young people learn to design their own models on the computer and print them into assemblies of their own engineering.  I like to believe there will always be something intrinsically appealing about models, and that people will always find the interest to continue making them.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Hubac's Historian

[Hubac's Historian]

I think that this is what I find so interesting about Kevin’s work.  He has found a way to make a much better mouse-trap that is worth his time and attention.  The choices of where to use or upgrade kit components offers a tremendous freedom to a creative mind.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Hubac's Historian

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Mouse trap? Did someone say mousetrap? Just give me 10 minutes... True though.

[Hubac's Historian]

14 minutes ago, Kevin-the-lubber said:

Mouse trap? Did someone say mousetrap? Just give me 10 minutes... True though.

I'm sure Cutty had mousetraps, i.e. scale kitties.  Everyone loves a good ship-cat, especially in England where the figurehead of choice was almost always the King cat.