location of carronades on a RN 74 gun ship

[AON]

The book From Powder Monkey to Governor (c. 1800) states "I don't know why they called them 74's when they had 82 guns.

 

The 74 guns are:

28 x 32 Pdr guns on the lower deck

28 x 18 Pdr guns on the upper deck

14 9 Pdr (short) guns on the quarterdeck

4 x 9 Pdr (long) guns on the forecastle

 

In addition they had the following 8 guns to bring the number up to 82:

6 x 18 Pdr carronades on the poop (roundhouse)

2 x 32 Pdr carronades on the forecastle

 

So the carronades did not replace any of the cannons.

I can see where the 4 long 9 Pdrs were located on the roundhouse (poop).

 

My question is: where were the 2 x 32 Pdr carronades located on the forecastle?

Edited June 11, 2022 by AON

[allanyed]

Hi Alan,

The short answer is that carronades did not always count for some time period.  There were variations on the 74's from their inception to the American war, and again from the American war to the Napoleonic war so to be more specific, the date in which you are interested needs to be a bit more specific.   Caruana goes into a lot detail across 7 or 8 pages as to numbers of each size gun and location for each time period, including the introduction of the Gover guns in volume 2 of The History of English Sea Ordnance.  There are a lot of photos of contemporary models of 74s on the RMG site that might help. 

Allan

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by allanyed

[AON]

Thank you Allan.

 

I have been looking at RMG/NMM images and models.

If they show anything the carronade is replacing the cannon not used in conjunction with it.

The exact time period would be 1786-1790 but anything showing the location of carronades on the forecastle in conjunction with the 4 x 9 Pdrs c.1800 would be useful.

[Morgan]

Where Carronades were positioned would depend on the time period you are considering.  Between 1801 and 1803 the Admiralty issued instructions that Carronades were not to be deployed in the wake of the rigging.  This was due to fire risks when the Carronades were fired, so they were not deployed between the shrouds.  From this it is reasonable to assume that prior to c.1800  Carronades had been fitted between the shrouds, with some adverse consequences.

 

Later on, nearer the War of 1812, the Carronade was cast with a longer muzzle cup which helped project beyond the shrouds and avoided this problem.

 

On the forecastle, if fitted with long guns, such as 9-Pounders, these would act as chase guns so would occupy the ports right forward.  Carronades could not act as chase guns, but could be fitted right forward if no long guns were fitted.

 

The above are general principles which should help narrow the possible locations by a process of elimination.  For definitive gun-type locations for a given ship you would need either the official Ordnance Records (The National Archives at Kew hold these but they are not digitised) or the Gunners records, these would allocate each gun / carronade to a specific port, each gun and carriage being given a unique number.  When decommissioned / recommissioned the individual guns were returned to the same location (particularly where fitted to gunports as opposed to open rails), primarily as each gun carriage was tailored to each port in order to centre it to the port when trained at the horizontal.

 

EDIT - our posts crossed but hopefully this still helps.

 

Gary

Edited June 11, 2022 by Morgan

[AON]

Below is an image of the Goliath forecastle.

The blue arrows are the locations of the 9 Pdrs even though the aft gun location has a rail drawn through it.

The blue arrow might be the location for the carronade.

There is one other possible location further aft where you see a similar gap between deadeyes which offers more room between guns than that of the blue arrow between the red arrows.

These two possibilities are speculation on my point.

[AON]

The other option which seems obvious except for one thing is found on the forecastle deck plan

The 9 Pdr cannon locations are in red.

I see two cutouts at the head... indicated in blue.

The only problem being that if this is the location it is over top of the cathead/tail beam.

 

[AON]

Morgan,

I`ve contacted The National Archives (Kews) to attempt to get the records by John Hindmarsh Sr. , the first gunner assigned to Bellerophon.  He was with her for about 10 years.

Their web page states a 10 day wait for a response is typical.  This I do not mind as I am quite some way from installing any guns.

I hope they have something.  If not I`ll ask about the sister ships in the same time period.

Thank you.

[mtaylor]

If all else fails, Alan, remember "Captain's Discretion".  

[druxey]

I agree with Mark. Some captains requested carronades, so individual ships' armament would have varied.

[Mark P]

Good Evening Allan;

 

When carronades were first introduced, they were (if I recall correctly; might be wrong!) only issued to a ship at the captain's request. It was also his decision (and presumably the gunner's) as to where they were to be sited. 

 

See below pictures of contemporary letters on the subject, from 1779 & 1788

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

 

[AON]

Yes Mark (and Druxey) I've read that also.

 

I've also read a listing of ships that had carronades... and the Bellerophon was not on the list... but then how was it they got tossed if they weren't there and why would the "youngster" , the gunner's son, say 74's had 82 guns when he was on the Bellerophon with his father?

 

I'll read your images when I get inside and on my computer... on my phone at the moment.

[AON]

I copied out the documents in an attempt to zoom in to read but that made them a little fussy.

As best I can tell it reads that the 74`s had 12 Pdr carronades fore and aft in 1779.

I have a statement from the boy that the 74 I`m interested in had 18 Pdr aft and 32 Pdr forward.

If I can get this as a document from the gunner (his father) and it gives the location other than ``forecastle`` I`m golden.

[Mark P]

Good Afternoon Allan;

 

The 1788 document gives the dockyards discretion to issue carronades as best suits the ship's qualities. So after this date (and presumably sometimes before) the arrangement could have been non-standard, as your sources indicate.

 

I have a further letter on the matter, dated 1782, which instructs the Navy Board to see that ships capable of bearing the weight of them are to have 68 pdr carronades on the forecastle, with lesser vessels having either 42 or 32 pdrs on the forecastle. The same letter states that the intention is for these to annoy the enemies' rigging, so they would probably be mounted in a position to bear more on the broadside than as a bow-chaser, where the longer barrelled cannon were used. 

 

If you would like the pages as images you can see better let me know, and I'll send them over.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[AON]

Yes please.

[Lieste]

A comment on weight and strain on the structure - the carronade itself is around 60-75% of the weight of a gun of the calibres they were typically mounted with (e.g. the 42pdr carronades mixed in with 12pdr, 32pdr carronade mixed in with 9pdr guns, 24pdr guns mixed with 6pdr guns, 18pdr with 4pdr guns etc)... the slide is relatively heavier than a truck carriage although the absolute weight might be lower, or similar. Ammunition is typically much heavier, but mostly stored in the magazine). The overall impact of a direct switch is a reduction of crew requirement, reduction on on-deck weight, but an increase in total stowed weight.

When fired, the carronades, being much ligher recoil faster and with more energy than the higher velocity light guns they are mixed with. In calculation this seems to be approximately the recoil energy of the full-gun of the carronade calibre... a much 'bigger' stress than the recoil of the heavier and higher velocity/lower shot mass light guns they are added to or substituted for.

A 32pdr carronade has a performance broadly similar to a 12pdr gun, is mounted in place of a 9pdr gun, and recoils like a 32pdr gun....no wonder they got a reputation for being unsteady, 'violent in recoil' and prone to break breechings and ironwork.

[AON]

I seem to recall reading that the larger carronade balls were hollow to make them lighter to handle but the weight label stayed as was referencing the diameter of the ball.

[bruce d]

That's a new one to me. I can see it being of use in armed boats, would be interested if you have more. It would have required a different process for making the hollow ball so there should be a paper trail.

👍

 

[mtaylor]

7 minutes ago, bruce d said:

That's a new one to me. I can see it being of use in armed boats, would be interested if you have more. It would have required a different process for making the hollow ball so there should be a paper trail.

👍

 

At some point they had a way to do it as eventually as they filled balls with powder and short fuse.  

[Lieste]

Hollow shot and shell for carronades on RN vessels seems to be an 1830s issue item - except for shell for bomb vessel's 68pdr carronades. (and by special application, as at Copenhagen 1801, where bomb were provided for the 68pdrs of the carronade armed ships of the line).

The hollow shot of the later period was 56lbs for the 8" guns, with the shell being 48.25lbs - increased to 50.5lbs for better accuracy and velocity retention).

The shot were otherwise full weight for the RN service ball as far as anything I have seen for 1780-1815.

Private supply of carronades came with a small 'package' (20-25 rounds) of ammunition from the Carron factory, which might have included hollowed shot, but there is no distinction made between 32pdr shot for guns or carronades in 'proportions of shot' listed for ships in the RN for either channel or foreign service (the case and grape are broken out as distinct types).

The reduction in shot weight from a hollow shot/shell causes an increase in velocity, and thus reduces the 'assistance' with recoil reduction significantly... and reduces penetration capability and carrying to range. The 8" shell being effectively reduced to equivalent to a 24pdr carronade for range and velocity retention, and penetration... though making holes like a 68pdr shot, and if filled and fusing correctly (a problem also not really solved well until the 1830s, preventing the use of grazing fire) having a significant damaging effect from fire and blast. (Note that before hollowed shot was provided, some shell was used unfilled as a battering round, though it would have been less effective than the shot in that use).

Edited June 19, 2022 by Lieste