Occre Diana (Spanish frigate 1792), low quarter gallery windows?

[Esap]

Hi all, I am relatively new to the hobby and have a question related to this kit, the Occre Spanish frigate Diana, which I was eyeing up to build next after I finish my learning experience with the Occre Albatros, as it seemed like a good stepping stone, is relatively inexpensive, and I like the idea of building a bigger ship like a frigate next.

Unfortunately, something has struck my eye that just seems slightly off, and now that I see it I cannot unsee it - the quarter gallery windows just seem too low-set. My eye follows the line of the gun ports and imagines where the deck would therefore be, and the window seems to be down right on that line, as though the windows were positioned on the lower 2/3rds of the wall from the floor up, which I feel would be odd/unusual.
This particular picture from the official product page showcases what I mean, the windows just seem slightly too low? 

 

To make matters worse, it seems the kit is not easy to make in this area and many build logs show the windows placed even lower than that official image, but... assuming I can match the official image, my question is: is this actually somewhat historically accurate? Perhaps I am simply wrong in my feeling as to where it should sit? I certainly am ignorant on the subject.

I know this isn't intended to be a perfect historical representation, and I think I am fine with that in general at this stage of my modelling career, I just have unfortunately noticed this particular oddity already and am seeking reassurance... or confirmation.

[mtaylor]

Interesting problem.  Have you looked at other builds?   It would appear that there are no galleries as such the extend out from hull siding.   I might be wrong on that part.   And yes, it looks like the bottom of the windows do go lower than the gun deck.  If those are galleries extending outside the hull line, it's possible that the gallery deck was lower than the main deck but not being familiar with Spanish vessels I can't say for certain.

[Esap]

Thanks mtaylor, things like the gallery being lower than the main deck is the type of thing I am uncertain about but would potential explain this if true. I have no idea if that was ever done?

I have discovered that the Diana was a 'Mahonesa' class frigate. I haven't found much regarding the Diana itself, but the Mahonesa does appear to show the gallery more as I would expect it. Based on the links below I am growing more confident that this is a small mistake in the model from Occre, and that indeed the windows should be higher up.
Combining this with the apparent difficulty in getting this aspect of the model correct anyway (seems a high number of build logs have the gallery windows even lower), and I am starting to think I should be picking a different kit. This is the type of subtle issue that if not consciously noticed would presumably never be an issue, but if you are unlucky enough to spot it...
 

https://www.art.com/products/p53659600004-sa-i6752955/thomas-whitcombe-capture-of-the-mahonesa-october-13th-1796-engraved-by-thomas-sutherland.htm

 

 

[mtaylor]

When I built my Constellation (see link in my signature) I scratched my own galleries.  Different era and probably different design.  The kit had some crappy casting and wasn't accurate nor fitting properly.   It really wasn't all that hard to do.  You could probably do the same thing on your model but you may need to rework the stern like the bottom photo shows.  The upper photo seems to show the stern framed in as it should be.

[allanyed]

9 hours ago, Esap said:

is this actually somewhat historically accurate

The only way to know for sure is if you can find an image of the contemporary plans.   OcCre probably based their plans on something, so maybe check with them or the Maritime Museum in Barcelona and the Naval Museum in Madrid to see what they have available.  As with scratch building, research for kit builds is a good idea before plowing ahead.  

 

Allan

8 hours ago, Esap said:

I am starting to think I should be picking a different kit.

Something to consider, but that is up to you in the end.    Look at the various build logs here at MSW and compare to photos of contemporary models on the RMG Collections and other museum sites and you will be able to see which kits would approach what you are looking for.    While the below is the HMS Diana 1794, not the Spanish ship, I suspect the gallery lights (windows) are closer to what would be the case even on the Spanish ship Diana

 

Allan

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-82174

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by allanyed

[RossR]

I have recently started building this kit. The gallery windows are made up of two separate castings with a photo etched brass piece for the window in the middle.  I may try to fabricate a wooden filler piece between the lower casting and the photo etched brass to raise the window.   It looks like there will be space between the upper casting and the railing for this to work.  

[allanyed]

21 hours ago, RossR said:

window in the middle. 

Do your instructions call these windows or something else? There are lights (not to be confused with lanterns) and ports but no windows on these ships.  I realize this is a terminology thing so a very minor point to many folks, but I am curious.   😀.  The translation from Spanish or Italian to English for many nautical terms has to be very difficult for kit makers as it is something of a language of its own.  

Allan

 

[RossR]

12 hours ago, allanyed said:

Do your instructions call these windows or something else? There are lights (not to be confused with lanterns) and ports but no windows on these ships.  I realize this is a terminology thing so a very minor point to many folks, but I am curious.   😀.  The translation from Spanish or Italian to English for many nautical terms has to be very difficult for kit makers as it is something of a language of its own.  

Allan

 

I was referring to these three parts.  They make up what the instructions call the gallery and the instructions call the top and bottom pieces in the photo the gallery bases and the middle piece is called the window.  Sorry if I wasn't clearer in my earlier post.  

[allanyed]

Thanks, that is what I thought might be the case.   The middle piece has three gallery lights, but they probably had no way to translate from Spanish to English so called them windows by mistake.  

Again, just a minor matter of nautical terminology which must be a very difficult thing for the folks making the instruction manual and drawings when it comes to translating.

Thanks again

Allan

[flyer]

I always liked the look of OCCRE's Diana - except for the fact, that looking from behind she seems to lose her trousers.

 

As Mark said, you would have to remodel the complete stern as well.

 

Perhaps you would consider to build Amati's Fly? She cost just a few pounds more, builds to a model of about the same dimensions, has three masts as well, is in a more convenient scale and is much better researched.

 

Regards

Peter

[RossR]

6 hours ago, allanyed said:

Thanks, that is what I thought might be the case.   The middle piece has three gallery lights, but they probably had no way to translate from Spanish to English so called them windows by mistake.  

Again, just a minor matter of nautical terminology which must be a very difficult thing for the folks making the instruction manual and drawings when it comes to translating.

Thanks again

Allan

As a newcomer to ship modeling the terminology can be a little intimidating.  I appreciate you sharing this information.  One of my goals on my build of the Frigate Diana is to take the time to learn more about the correct terminology as I go.  Especially on the sails and rigging.  Would love to have you follow my build log and add some help as I need it.  Thanks.

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33530-frigate-diana-by-rossr-occre-185/

 

[allanyed]

That is quite a compliment, but alas, I am no expert compared to some.   There are a number of written sources of terms and meanings mentioned in other logs and forums here at MSW.  I will be honored to follow your build and help where I can and I very much admire you for wanting to learn.  

Allan