Need Help Identify Model Battleship / Recently Saved From The Curbside

[Howard_And_Olivia]

First of all, Happy New Year.

My bother-in-law just saved this battleship model boat from the curbside. It was from an apt building, so no idea of the previous owner. To my limited knowledge, this battleship does not appear to be modeled after any real one, I think. Is this something worth having a professional to restore/fix? or should we use this as an opportunity to learn how to fix/repair on our own? Thanks.

 

Howard

 

 

[Keith Black]

Howard, welcome to MSW.

 

 It's a decorative model from Germany made in the late 20's early 30's. made to represent the Great Harry, see the below.

 

 

[Peanut6]

Ultimately it's your call on what you would like to do.  IMHO, for the money it might be a great learning opportunity for you to see what you can do the way you want to do it.  A clean slate to go anywhere and do anything you want.

[Keith Black]

 There are many German models from this time period of the Santa Maria and another undetermined English carrack but very few Great Harry models. It's  well worth restoring for the novelty of it if nothing else.

 

 Howard, if you decide you don't want to restore it and want to sell it please PM me. 

[Jaager]

1 hour ago, Howard_And_Olivia said:

Is this something worth having a professional to restore/fix? or should we use this as an opportunity to learn how to fix/repair on our own?

This is my own biased opinion.  I have no experience with restoration or with anything like The Antiques Road Show - except watching it.

 

What you have there is decorator kitsch.  It is not a ship model in any meaningful definition of the term.  It is something that sorta looks like a ship - from a distance, in dark light, thru a gauze curtain, if you squint.   That said,  it probably has value as its own thing.  I doubt that the value involves much money, but as time passes, what was once one of many copies will become more unique.  If collecting kitsch as kitsch ever becomes a thing, who knows?

 

If you are wealthy and have too much money, you may find someone willing to restore it.  It does not need to be anyone with experience with actual ship models, just with restoration in general.   What you pay will be lost money. 

 

If you restore it yourself, it will be time donated.  Consider it time spent doing something for fun.   You will want to return it to what it was.  There are no "improvements" to make it more ship-like that will not destroy any value it may have.  Clean what you can and replace any rotted fiber (lines and sails) with something that is close to what was the original material.  The goal is to make it as close to what it was as you can.

 

If you want an actual ship model, there is a thread at the top of this forum - For beginners - a Cautionary Tale  that will help with how to build your own. 

 

[Roger Pellett]

As this thing bears little or no resemblance to an actual ship, it’s value as a ship model is $0.00 and any money spent restoring it will not increase its value.

 

It may have some value as an example of antique decor.  This question can best be answered by an antique dealer.  Likewise, restoring it is a job for an antique restorer, not a ship model maker.

 

Roger

[allanyed]

3 hours ago, Howard_And_Olivia said:

model boat from the curbside.

Perhaps speak with whoever had the sense to throw it to the curb.   He may have it right, but then again,  if monetary value is not a concern, perhaps to story behind it may have some value to share with friends and family.

Allan

[Keith Black]

 Howard, is there a tag on the keel on the port side (left side) at the back near the rudder that reads "Germany" as in the photo below? 

 

[Bob Cleek]

There was a time fifty years ago that I'd have dismissed this model as a "decorator piece" having no value. While I won't make any estimate of value, I will say that I'm not so quick to dismiss it today, fifty years later. As it reaches its 100th birthday, it becomes a genuine antique. As a mass-produced item manufactured for export, it won't have any "folk art" value, but it isn't without a certain whimsical charm. Well cleaned and restored, it could still be a valued "decorator piece" again. I wouldn't say it was worth any great amount of money, but I'm sure somebody would love to have it in their library or "man cave." I wouldn't turn my nose up at it so quickly today.

[Howard_And_Olivia]

1 hour ago, Keith Black said:

 Howard, is there a tag on the keel on the port side (left side) at the back near the rudder that reads "Germany" as in the photo below? 

 

Hi, Keith. Thanks for the information. Unfortunately, no tag there. What is the manufacture's name of this Germany company in the photo? Perhaps I might be able to Google on to see if there are some reference to some ship models? Will keep you posted. Thanks.

[Keith Black]

25 minutes ago, Howard_And_Olivia said:

What is the manufacture's name of this Germany company in the photo?

 Howard, we don't who the makers were. As I said earlier, there were many of these models made except for the one you have.and there are fewer of them. There are major differences in quality and building techniques between one model and the next. This leads me to believe there were several people making these. We scoured the internet trying to find any information about who was involved in making these models but alas, no joy.

 

 If you and your wife decide you want to restore the model I'll take you through it step by step. I know how the yards, mast, and cannons are attached and what you have to do to remove them. It'll be a lot of work (some of it messy, dirty, and smelly) and you'll have to educate yourself about ships and basic ship modeling, mainly rigging but you can do it if you're committed to the project and are determined to see it through. And it won't happen overnight, it may take years depending how much time you're willing to spend on it. 

 

 I've been working off and on the one below for a couple of years now. I'm at the point where I need to source rigging line to proceed.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Keith Black

[Howard_And_Olivia]

3 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

 Howard, we don't who the makers were. As I said earlier, there were many of these models made except for the one you have.and there are fewer of them. There are major differences in quality and building techniques between one model and the next. This leads me to believe there were several people making these. We scoured the internet trying to find any information about who was involved in making these models but alas, no joy.

 

 If you and your wife decide you want to restore the model I'll take you through it step by step. I know how the yards, mast, and cannons are attached and what you have to do to remove them. It'll be a lot of work (some of it messy, dirty, and smelly) and you'll have to educate yourself about ships and basic ship modeling, mainly rigging but you can do it if you're committed to the project and are determined to see it through. And it won't happen overnight, it may take years depending how much time you're willing to spend on it. 

Thanks, Keith. This is an awesome learning experience for sure. For now we are going to keep it safe in a spare room away from the kids and the 3 cats! Will do some more physical checkup on the boat model itself, in case if we missed any marks.

[Boxbuilds]

Howard

I spent a year restoring a decorative model of the Harry.  I spent a lot of time researching the ship  and have some material hinting at the model’s rigging.  I found that these models sport “representative rigging”—something that gives the viewer a sense of the rigging but in no way complete or accurate.  Furthermore, many components like blocks, flags, guns etc will be missing and need to be fabricated.  
    My wife will kill me but if you need help restoring yours we should talk more.  
 

John

Edited January 31, 2023 by Boxbuilds

[Keith Black]

1 hour ago, Boxbuilds said:

I spent a year restoring a decorative model of the Harry.  I spent a lot of time researching the ship  and have some material hinting at the model’s rigging.  I found that these models sport “representative rigging”—something that gives the viewer a sense of the rigging but in no way complete or accurate.  Furthermore, many components like blocks, flags, guns etc will be missing and need to be fabricated.  
    My wife will kill me but if you need help restoring yours we should talk more.

 

 John, good to hear from you and thank you for posting regarding this model. IMHO the Harry was the crown jewel of this decorative style model made in Germany made in the 20/30's and no one knows the Harry better than yourself. Not to wish any ill will between you and your wife but I'm hoping Howard takes you up on your offer. 

 

 Keith

[Boxbuilds]

For some reason I'm captivated by some of these German models. My best research puts their rise in the period of restoration in Germany after WWII.  I cannot identify a manufacturer either.  One possibility is that they were made as a home industry -- a lot popped up at the time.  I have found evidence of many decorative models from that period that use the same unique blocks, deadeyes, rigging technique, painted sails and paint scheme which, to my mind, indicates a bigger effort.  I read that one of the German wooden toy makers that existed then did dabble in ships.  There wasn't enough elaboration to confirm those ships were the ones of interest.  So that may be a dead end.  In summary, I also tried to establish a provenance to the Great Harry and spent several months searching any source I could think of, to no avail.  

Edited February 3, 2023 by Boxbuilds

[Boxbuilds]

I wonder if we should be more tolerant of some decorative ship models. Some can be so rough that we might not find them acceptable for our collections.  Beauty is in the eye …… But some represent the standard for the time they were built and are worthy of some respect. 

 

Attached are photos of a one hundred+ year old decorative model and a simplistic modern decorative model.  One sits in a museum and was said to have been featured at the 1937 World Exposition in Paris.  The other is sold on a popular website. Both are 4 masted, have a solid wooden hull, are inaccurately rigged and were/are reasonably priced in their time.  My point is probably obvious.  The value of these items is relative to other factors besides the precision and/or accuracy with which they were built.

As model shipwrights and proponents of nautical history, we should want to acknowledge the history of “model shipwrighting.”  We have probably seen models of Egyptian funeral barges from BC periods. We were also seeing how some model shipwright of the day built that model. That’s history.  Building models depends on the information, tools, materials, and technology of their time. The ship models for burial chambers, cathedrals, powerful merchants, naval engineers, etc. were limited by these and other factors.  We wouldn’t expect to see an admiralty model in the 9^th century, for example.  Given this perspective, maybe some of these old, but less accurate models are worth appreciating for what they were. 

 

Another aspect of judging decorative models is the converse of the factors vs period in which they were built.  When the information, tools, materials and technology IS available when a model is built but these factors were not well applied to the result, then it’s more understandable when that model disappoints.  

 

While some people are not nautical fans and don’t want ship models, others don’t have the knowledge, skills or time to fix an old decorative ship that the cat destroyed a decade ago.  So out goes the model.  For the right person, finding this wreck can be fortunate if they evaluate it a moment upon discovering it.  Maybe it has enough history, nostalgia, character, or challenge to appeal to you.  If so, it’s worth thinking about restoring it.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Boxbuilds

[Keith Black]

John, if you note, the fighting towers have arched portals on the model you restored and are different than the model Howard has. His model's fighting tower portals are simply round, not arched which would be a time saving step and makes me thank Howard's model was done at a later date. 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Keith Black

[Boxbuilds]

There multiple differences.  The sails are not painted. The deadeyes are not tapered and have a right angle edge from the flat front to the to the side. The fighting towers have a similar profile but the opening is different, as noted. The crows nest shape is different. The is no discernible paint. There is no cover on the gallery. There are chasers present. Gun placement is different. I can’t see a figurehead.
The anchor has the same shape. Guns were turned to the same shape and gunport covers appear the same. Masts and yards have similar taper. 
 

I’m inclined to think that they were both made by the same group because of the guns and casting of the anchor (unique shape).  The differences mostly seem time saving as you point out Keith.  The gun placement is puzzling. It doesn’t match old images. 
 

Regardless, this would be keen to restore although there would be a lot of guessing about the details to be weathered. 
 

What if it got restored in time for the Midwest show!  

[Keith Black]

3 hours ago, Boxbuilds said:

What if it got restored in time for the Midwest show!  

 That would be grand!

 

3 hours ago, Boxbuilds said:

I’m inclined to think that they were both made by the same group because of the guns and casting of the anchor (unique shape).

 I agree. This group's work is pretty discernible compared to other groups.