Wales, diminishing thickness at the bow

[Martes]

4 hours ago, Jaager said:

Monarque/HMS Monarch will be a challenge.  The officer who took off the lines of that capture only drew the absolute minimum number of stations.  The work to get the timber patterns will be less, but the frame sections will be very fat - too fat actually.  I will probably subdivide by replicating stations and then have a lot more shaping of the joined sections.

The plan for the Monarque includes design diagonals, which should make restoring the missing lines relatively straighforward. And there are two additional stations forward marked in pencil.

 

Additionally, there is a Danish copy of the plan (possibly obtained by Stibold in France) in the Danish archive, number F163, and the 74-gun Pembroke of 1758 was her direct copy.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Martes

[Martes]

5 hours ago, allanyed said:

Martes, this is important and it did change over time.   The thicknesses of the wales and planking above and below varied with size of ship and era even within just the English Navy.

If I remember correctly, the smooth transition to wale was initially French fashion, but the Danish ships definitely made an impression, as their description in the Naval Chronicle specifically mentions the smooth sides, see Vol 19

https://archive.org/details/navalchronicleco20londiala/page/n13/mode/2up

 

 

[Jaager]

5 hours ago, allanyed said:

Hope this helps at least a little.

I will give it a closer look when the temp is a bit lower and I can concentrate. 

On my electronic board at present is HMS Alcide  74  1779 - it is a bit beyond my arbitrary time scale and as I have HMS Albion 1763 already in the can, it is essentially a repeat,  but I like the quality of the plan.   With a bit of reading, I learned that Alcide is another name for Hercules.  My past experience had me seeing it as an agent that was out to kill "Al's".

[allanyed]

Dean,

Getting way off topic here but if you are going to rig the 74,  there are a number of high res drawings of yards and masts circa 1778-1780 on the Wiki Commons site for a 74.  FYI there is also a detailed drawing of the elm pumps.   PM if you cannot find them and I can email them to you.

Allan

Edited July 29, 2023 by allanyed

[Jaager]

Thank you Allan,

I am not sure that I will get to masting on any model.  I am in a loop.  My  compulsion seems to be to have the availability of timber patterns not be a limiting factor for any ship that I might care to model.  For decades, lofting timber patterns this huge wall blocking me, because existing POF methods are so onerous and time consuming.   It was six months of really awful plotting of points and worse, trying to connect every 3 dots with a smooth curve that matches the curves on either side.   My joy at finding a way to do this in a way that is both quick and accurate, has me doing it over and over.  If I focus, I can start with NMM plans for a 100 gun ship and have patterns printed out and ready for wood in 10-14 days.  Lesser rates are even quicker to do.  A schooner is maybe 4 days.  It is safe and comfortable.  I think I can breakout.  It is a matter of finding the discipline.  I find some resonance with the posts about a compulsion to have a closet full of kits.  I have boxes of envelopes of patterns for about 150 ships now.  A heck of a lot less expensive than kits, but the paper is about $4.00 for a large ship.  My new Epson Eco printer has removed the significant ink cost with my old Brother printer.   

 

 

[alpayed]

It seems obvious when looking at RMG plans that the wales thin in thickness at the stem rebet. This also means that the diminishing strakes below must also thin at the stem.

However looking at the draughts in F H Chapman's works you would be drawn to disagree. The majority of his draughts show the wales protruding onto the stem somewhat.

There are exceptions though. PLXV #21 clearly shows no protrusion. PLXVI #22 Shows no protrusion on the draught but clearly shows a protrusion on the perspective view.

The RMG draught of Trinity Lighter is the only evidence of a thinning Wale.

Conclusion??   I DON'T KNOW  Interesting discussion though.

 

Regards

Allan

 

[Martes]

Thank you, Allan, the Trinity Lighter plan is extremely valuable find in this context!

Edited August 2, 2023 by Martes

[allanyed]

7 hours ago, alpayed said:

Conclusion??   I DON'T KNOW  Interesting discussion though.

LOL   Thanks Allan.  These are great drawings and I have bookmarked the Architectura Navalis Mercatoria Stockholm, 1768 website.   One thing that jumped out at me is in plate XVI top left.  The wale appears to be a layer on top of the planking, or, the planking below the wale has pointed ends that I thought were not acceptable by any nation.   The index of these drawings calls these merchant ships.  Could the planking methods be different in nature than British naval vessels?

Allan

[BANYAN]

Hi Allan, I have not posted earlier as I thought you were calling for information much earlier than that I hold.  For interest though, it may be useful to note that in HMCSS Victoria (1855), the Specification required:

Wale, Sheerstrake and Topside.-Mahogany, thick 3 inches, to taper forward and aft to 2 inches. 

Also, the imagery shows a 'blended' strake hull (the wales etc do [edit - NOT] appear to stand proud).

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited August 3, 2023 by BANYAN

[alpayed]

Hi Pat.

I just joined in the conversation. I thought I might add fuel to the fire so to speak.

I had already thinned the wales on the Investigator plans a couple of months ago so the topic is timely.

I think (IMHO) that it was common practice in British ships. There is the odd draught that shows otherwise but not many.

Chapman depicts a lot of "non British" ships and the protruding wales seem a lot more common in those vessels.

Interestingly the wales on Chapman's "Cat" are flush with the rebet.

As you know and as discussed above there was a evolution into smooth hulls.

We should chat soon.

 

Regards

Allan

 

Investigator_08_part.

[allanyed]

Thank you Pat and Allan, very much appreciated.

In recent months I brought this diminishing thickness up on several build logs as the wales strakes stuck out so far they could not seat in the rabbet.   It was suggested by an admin that I start a subject about this thus this string, and to your point, it was pretty much meant to be without a time frame other than the era of wooden ships with wales.     Thanks again

Allan

Edited August 3, 2023 by allanyed

[Martes]

I ran into a plan suggesting a very early (~1728) Danish use of gradually increasing width of the planking towards the lower wale:

 

 

(see G2846, Prins Frederick)

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17149179#188975,31896027

 

And, by the way, note the difference between this forward view and side view of the bow/stern that is attributed to the same ship under G2845

 

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17149179#188975,31896025

Edited August 19, 2023 by Martes

[allanyed]

2 hours ago, Martes said:

I ran into a plan suggesting a very early (~1728) Danish use of gradually increasing width of the planking towards the lower wale:

This is a great drawing confirming this is how it was done. Exceptions there may be, but the majority of evidence points out this feature.  Be it scratch or kit, it really is easy to accomplish the thinning of the wales strakes.  This is also a great example for showing how all the strakes end at the rabbet, not coming to a point short of the rabbet,

Thanks for posting this Martes.

Allan

Edited August 19, 2023 by allanyed

[Brent Goudreau]

Does anyone have  a clear copy of David Steel's "Timbers for a 100 Gun Ship"....I've seen this posted serval places but cannot get a clear copy .. would like to use for reference. Thank you in advance. 

Brent

[allanyed]

Welcome to MSW Brent.  It would be polite if you would post an introduction with a little about you in the new member forum.

 

Regarding Steel, I am aware of The Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture which has a list of scantlings for all the timbers of ship sizes circa 1805, and his Elements and Practice of Rigging but am curious about this Timbers for a 100 Gun Ship as I have not heard about this one.  

Allan