How to glue to deck when it’s already finished.

[Tony28]

Hi all. First build. Amati Bluenose scale 1:100. I’ve got to stage where I need to oil the deck then paint inner gunwales, then attach all the deck items. Not sure about this. Some items have a 1/2mm footing to glue and it’s going to get messy. Also, do you mask off where such items are going before oiling? Not a problem for some things but others are so tiny. Any advice appreciated! Some items in photos, some smaller yet to be made! 
 

 

[allanyed]

The deck of your model looks great! 

 

 I might be missing something here but why do you want to oil the deck?   Glue will not bond well to oiled wood and if you use another finish such as a varnish or other similar product the glue will bond to the finish and not penetrate the wood.  You can add your items first then apply a finish such as a varnish or poly (or oil) or other material that you want to use with a brush so you do not coat anything you do not want coated.   If it is an eye or horse or something like that it does not matter as you will be drilling through the finish and into the wood.

1 hour ago, Tony28 said:

then attach all the deck items.

To which items are you referring that might be problematic?

Allan

[Tony28]

28 minutes ago, allanyed said:

The deck of your model looks great! 

 

 I might be missing something here but why do you want to oil the deck?   Glue will not bond well to oiled wood and if you use another finish such as a varnish or other similar product the glue will bond to the finish and not penetrate the wood.  You can add your items first then apply a finish such as a varnish or poly (or oil) or other material that you want to use with a brush so you do not coat anything you do not want coated.   If it is an eye or horse or something like that it does not matter as you will be drilling through the finish and into the wood.

To which items are you referring that might be problematic?

Allan

 

Thank you Allan. 
 

Got part of a winch that is 1.5mm thick. About 4 mm long. Have just do it carefully I guess?? Got at least two other parts like this. 
 

As for oil. I’ve always used oil for all my woodwork. (Not models as I’ve never made one before). Varnish is just horrible in my opinion so not sure about that. I guess I could try by thinning some out. 
 

I think perhaps like you said, stick everything down then maybe oil around it. Not ideal but probably best. Maybe oil the majority of the deck where it’s easily masked with the large deck pieces. 
 

I usually oil with a cloth. I went to this finish for all woodwork after years of trying and hating varnish. I just don’t like the look of it I guess. 
 

Thank you again Allan. 
 

 

 

[John Ruy]

Just a thought, you might try Amber Shellac. It seals the wood and (I think) gives it an oiled look. Small parts glue down well with CA Glue. I use it on parts designated to be Natural Oiled. 
 

Try it on some scrap wood before you put it on that beautiful deck. 
 

John
 

 

[Jaager]

6 hours ago, Tony28 said:

I need to oil the deck

Which is the product that you are naming "oil"?

For the deck furniture that is wood, PVA to bond.

For metal - two part epoxy.

For plastic - no idea.

PVA requires a porous or rough surface for its hyphae to get a grip. rough bare wood.

Epoxy will bond to which ever material it meets - except maybe plastics or if your "oil" is actual oil - like mineral oil or castor oil that stays liquid - no bond.

If it is a polymerizing oil  - Tung, Linseed, or various nut oils - the epoxy will bond to it and the strength of the oil bond to wood will be the strength of the fitting's bond.

 

Old style oil based vanish was often Linseed with a heavy metal catalyst to speed polymerization.

Polyurethane is straight up plastic.  If this is what you mean by varnish, I am with you in finding it unacceptable.

 

In any case, any fitting should bond to the bare wood.  Protect the footprint of the fitting with tape before you apply any clear finish.

You seem determined about the oil,  so suggesting half saturated shellac as a primer or solo and rhen full strength shellac if a clear layer is desired.

If you are serious about assuring that the fittings stay bonded, add a mechanical component.

This is tricky to do.  For metal or plastic,  a solid brass pin - fit into a hole in the middle of the fitting's footprint and into a hole in the deck. -epoxy both ends.

For a wood fixture - a bamboo "dowel" "trunnel" instead of brass.  PVA.  - This is really "old school".

Edited December 17, 2023 by Jaager

[BETAQDAVE]

1 hour ago, John Ruy said:

Try it on some scrap wood before you put it on

That's true of so much of modeling.  Don't experiment with stuff like that on the finish product until you know exactly how it will work or if it even will work!  Unfortunately, in some cases once it's done, like it or not, you're stuck with it!  

[Tony28]

19 minutes ago, Jaager said:

Which is the product that you are naming "oil"?

For the deck furniture that is wood, PVA to bond.

For metal - two part epoxy.

For plastic - no idea.

PVA requires a porous or rough surface for its hyphae to get a grip. rough bare wood.

Epoxy will bond to which ever material it meets - except maybe plastics or if your "oil" is actual oil - like mineral oil or castor oil that stays liquid - no bond.

If it is a polymerizing oil  - Tung, Linseed, or various nut oils - the epoxy will bond to it and the strength of the oil bond to wood will be the strength of the fitting's bond.

 

Old style oil based vanish was often Linseed with a heavy metal catalyst to speed polymerization.

Polyurethane is straight up plastic.  If this is what you mean by varnish, I am with you in finding it unacceptable.

 

In any case, any fitting should bond to the bare wood.  Protect the footprint of the fitting with tape before you apply any clear finish.

You seem determined about the oil,  so suggesting half saturated shellac as a primer or solo and rhen full strength shellac if a clear layer is desired.

If you are serious about assuring that the fittings stay bonded, add a mechanical component.

This is tricky to do.  For metal or plastic,  a solid brass pin - fit into a hole in the middle of the fitting's footprint and into a hole in the deck. -epoxy both ends.

For a wood fixture - a bamboo "dowel" "trunnel" instead of brass.  PVA.  - This is really "old school".

 

Thank you Jaager. 
 

Danish oil is my usual choice but like I say, never done this before. Getting hold of shellac seems not as straightforward in the UK. I do have some sanding sealer.

 

yes, I was talking about polyurethane, horrible stuff I think. 
 

will experiment with some ideas and see if owt  sticks to it! 
 

Thanks again, 

 

Tony. 

 

 

[John Ruy]

Tony, 

 

Here’s the Shellac I use. Found in our local hardware shops. Don’t know about the UK. 
 

John

 

[Roger Pellett]

An overlooked product for gluing small parts to wooden surfaces is clear lacquer based nail polish available in any drugstore cosmetics dept.  Brand is unimportant as long as it is lacquer and not acrylic.  

 

Roger

[Jaager]

I did a search for shellac flakes in UK  and it came up on Amazon UK.  There is probably pre-mixed also.

The solvent is ethanol 95% (It has a strong bond with water. If you started with 100% ethanol, it will pull water vapour from the atmosphere until it is back to 95%.) old time = 100% methanol,  or 99% isopropanol.

For flakes, the lighter the flakes, the less soluble.  I read and had accepted that dewaxing removed a solubilizer, but I wonder if dewaxing actually just reduces the weight?  The part that is shellac may be just as soluble and the fraction that is something else just reduces the overall weight as it is removed?

Half saturated shellac is a near universal primer.  Wipes on, soaks in, dries fast and just about any follow on material - polymerizing oil, paint - acrylic or organic solvent based, varnish - water or mineral spirit,  will bond to it.

Add a bit of catalyzed linseed oil to the pad with the shellac and it is French polish.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Jaager

[wefalck]

Personally, I would shy away from oil on models. In case of decks, I would use a nitrocellulose-based sanding filler (not the acrylic-based ones). Depending on the wood, one or two coats will be sufficient. Don't apply to liberally and rub down with finest (0000) steel-wool. Dedust carefully and perhaps use a magnet to catch any swarf from the steel-wool. Such a treatment will not change the apearance of the wood significantly - decks on ships were never treated, as it would make them slippery and unsafe.

 

In principle, one should not rely on glue alone for fastening, unless for larger surfaces. Normally, such deck-fittings would actually not sit on the deck, but would be attached to structural elements of the hull and planking would go around them. As the items in question seem to be cast from white-metal, I would carefully drill pin-holes into their bottom, insert a short pin temporarly to help locating the corresponding hole on the deck, drill this hole and then insert pins of appropriate lengths. As the parts seem to be metal, using epoxi for glueing is good advice. Otherwise, the nail varnish (or better zapon varnish) also works, as it adheres well to metal (zapon varnish is traditionally used to protect silver-ware from tarnishing) and sheer-forces are taken up by the pins.

 

Shellac either in flakes or as ready-made solution should be readily available in the UK. Not sure, whether this French brand is still available in those post-Brexit days, but Liberon does have shellac-solution. 

 

[Bob Cleek]

On 12/17/2023 at 9:16 AM, John Ruy said:

Tony, 

 

Here’s the Shellac I use. Found in our local hardware shops. Don’t know about the UK. 
 

John

 

Zinsser's Bulls Eye prepared shellac is definitely what everybody seems to use here in the U.S. unless they are mixing their own shellac with flakes and alcohol. HOWEVER, what is shown above is amber shellac. Shellac comes in a range of colors on the "honey brown" or "amber" spectrum. Amber shellac is "amber colored." A single coat of Bulls Eye amber shellac will color the shellacked surface with a transparent film that has an "amber colored" or "light orange/brown" cast. Additional coats of amber shellac will add additional layers of this coloration to the point where a half-dozen or so coats will result in a very dark brown color. If this coloration is undesirable on your model (and I've never seen an application where I would have desired it on a model at all) Zinsser's Bulls Eye Clear Shellac should be used. The amber shellac is shellac's natural color. The clear shellac is bleached so that the shellac adds no coloration to the surface to which it's applied. For the purposes of sealing wood in modeling applications, I would strongly recommend that clear shellac be used.  If a change in the appearance of the wood is desired, a thinned stain or dye should be used, followed by a coat of thinned shellac to seal the surface.

 

Other than for finishing large flat areas without surface detail, such as bright finished hulls, model bases and cases, and the like, I would not recommend the use of any "wipe on" finish such as an oil commonly used to finish furniture. Such oils, unless greatly thinned, are thick and tend to collect in the nooks, crannies, and details of a model and are very difficult to apply in a sufficiently thin coating. Application of oils is also very difficult because they cannot be "rubbed" very effectively and rubbing always risks accidentally doing damage to small detail parts applied to the surface.  Finally, most rubbed oils take time to fully polymerize and so tend to attract and collect dust and dirt that are very difficult, if not impossible, to remove. Finishing scale models well requires a "scale" finish coating. The thicker the coating, the more the thickness of the coating impairs the crispness of scale detail that is to be desired. This means that paints should be of high quality with a relatively high content of finely ground pigment. High quality commercially bottled "scale model paint" is made to meet this requirement, as are quality "tubed" artists' oils and acrylics which can be suitably thinned by the user for bristle brush or airbrush application. Thinned clear shellac ("2 pound cut" or less) provides an advantage in this respect as a clear finish or sealer over opaque paints, stains, and dyes in that it provides an extremely thin coating which soaks into the wood surface and is virtually invisible when the alcohol solvent quickly evaporates. (Shellac is also an excellent fixative for rigging knots and "starching" rigging line to shape catenary curves in the line. Thicker "cuts" of shellac, which can be obtained from pre-mixed shellac by simply allowing a sufficient amount of the alcohol solvent to evaporate, is also suitable for use as an adhesive which, where the occasion demands it and can be easily dissolved and removed with the application of alcohol. 

 

Where bare wood is to be portrayed on a model, such as is frequently the case with decks, and the wood species used fails to provide the required scale appearance of bare wood, which is often the case, I would recommend the use of a thinned stain or a dye. Achieving the effect desired from the application of a stain or dye can be tricky and testing and experimentation is essential before application to be sure the effect one wishes will be achieved. If one isn't familiar with working with mixing finishes, they should find that one of the bottled premixed stains offered by the model paint manufacturers will provide a more certain outcome than mixing their own. 

 

Finally, the necessity of testing all finishes and finish combinations on a model before application to the model cannot be stressed enough. Frequently, correction of a "disaster" in the finishing process is near impossible to accomplish. Due consideration must be given to the compatibility of finish materials is critical. While shellac somewhat uniquely can be considered a "universal" sealer that "plays well" with any subsequent coating applied to it, dissimilar coating products often are not compatible with each other and the application of one over the other can result in disastrous consequences. Particularly, oil-based finishes and water-based finishes (e.g., acrylics) should never be presumed to be compatible with each other without testing. Even similar types of coatings from different manufacturers must be tested for compatibility with each other. Notably, some acrylic paints are thinned with water, others with alcohol, and still others, according to their manufacturers, are thinned with proprietary thinners. As the saying goes, "For best results, follow the manufacturer's instructions!