How to locate the galleon's decks and the fit between the frame and false keel ?

[Giorgik63]

1 - From the plans of this galleon, how can I identify the position of the decks ?

2 - Furthermore, since I have to create the joint between the frames and the false keel, how should I proceed ?

[Gregory]

The decks are not shown in those drawings, so you would need another source to provide that information.

 

When you say " false keel " are you referring to the center longitudinal  piece of a plank on bulkhead model?  To establish the slots, you will first have to establish the deck/s ...

[Jaager]

I think it would serve you to spend a lot of time with:

The Galleon  by Peter Kirsch  - the first edition is apparently written in German  - there is an English edition - I can find no information about a possible Russian edition.

Here is a post that describes the book:

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/20489-galleon-the-great-ships-of-the-armada-era-by-peter-kirsch/

 

I think that central spine  is more descriptive than false keel for what that part is,  but it lacks in pretense.

The same applies to mold (mould) instead of frame.  The cross section units in POB are definitely  not frames.

 

KHL looks too low to be  the LWL - floating waterline  and  #2 looks too high.  

With the float waterline  - there were rules about how high the gun deck sill should be above it.  There were rules about the distance of the deck to the sill.

It was all a complex chain of proportions and relationships starting with one or two or three beginning values  - such as the length of the keel (touch)  and the breadth. 

[Giorgik63]

First of all thanks for your information.

Jaager: I will read the book you recommended.

Gregory: Yes

Where can I find a more precise plan, to start studying, of an English galleon (maybe free 🙂 ) from the 17th century from which I can obtain the POB ?

[Gregory]

I would start off by Googling English Galleon Plans and looking at the images.   You will have to sort out what kind of costs, if any, you might incur.   

 

You will see many options including images where you might be able to infer the run of the decks.

 

If you are not that concerned about historical or architectural accuracy, then what you can infer from these drawings, along with the lines you have,  you should be able to come up with the basis for a nice model.

 

 

 

 

[Giorgik63]

Thank you, Gregory

[Giorgik63]

Thanks to your advice, I found in another American SOS forum the plan of the Golden Hind in which the bridges are shown (see dotted lines).

So my question is this: can the bridges in my plan be taken from the one I put on the Golden Hind (with the necessary modifications) ?

[Gregory]

I am not sure what you are calling ' bridges '...

[Giorgik63]

decks. Sorry, I use google automatic translator

[Gregory]

5 hours ago, Giorgik63 said:

can the bridges in my plan be taken from the one I put on the Golden Hind (with the necessary modifications) ?

I suppose you can, but you are moving out of my area of expertise when you start drawing your own plans.  Perhaps someone else can help.

 

It sounds like you may need some good drafting software to do this.

[Baker]

maybe my buildlog can help you

BTW. There no detailled plans for an English galleon.

 

[Giorgik63]

Thanks Baker. I looked at your post, but most of the links are no longer visible, including the plans http://www.john-tom.com/SailBoatPlans/GoldenHind/golden_hindSm.pdf.

[GrandpaPhil]

The Kirsch book is excellent and it has excellent drawings of an early 17th century galleon, enough to build a model.

 

Golden Hind was 16th Century.  The Victory Models plan set of the Revenge, a race-built galleon and a contemporary of the Golden Hind is an excellent plan set.

Amati of Italy has a set of plans for the Mayflower of 1620, and the HMS Lyon of 1635.

 

 

 

Edited January 25 by GrandpaPhil

[Jaager]

If you wish to do a serious recreation of a possible galleon then I think that you should use Kirsch  - especially the the reprint treatise  in the appendix - ( if there are gaps maybe some of the formula rules in Deane's Doctrine which is a hundred or more years later - but his rules came from somewhere ).  Design your own ship.  Do it on paper - I am not sure that any computer design program will allow you the tools to replicate the old line and compass method.

I suspect that some if not all of the available plans are of modern replica vessels.  Vessels designed for the tourist trade.  Vessels that include present day safety compromises.  Some of them look like cartoons of what the actual vessels probably looked like -  I am thinking Baker's Mayflower as an example.   All are just a modern author's guess - no more valid than something that you could generate from scratch .  And if some of your choices turn out to be wrong, only a bit of time is lost.  You can backup and redo.

 

Instead if thin plywood molds, if you do the design, your molds can be 1/2" (12.7mm) Pine and those be close together.  Then a single layer of planking would be well supported.

[Baker]

7 hours ago, Giorgik63 said:

Thanks Baker. I looked at your post, but most of the links are no longer visible, including the plans http://www.john-tom.com/SailBoatPlans/GoldenHind/golden_hindSm.pdf.

maybe I downloaded this somewhere on the PC.
I'll take a look later

[Baker]

Some PDFs. (When I put them on my PC they were free downloads)

golden_hind plannen-volledig.pdf

 

2014Gresham.pdf

elizabethan-merchant-ships-and-shipbuilding.pdf

Furring in light of 16th century ship design_web.pdf

red bay 2.pdf

scheepsbouw 16e eeuw Engeland.pdf

 

 

[Baker]

17 hours ago, Jaager said:

Some of them look like cartoons of what the actual vessels probably looked like -  I am thinking Baker's Mayflower as an example.   All are just a modern author's guess -

I never built a Mayflower....

 It is certainly not the perfect model, but if this is a cartoon, thanks

 

Edited January 26 by Baker

[Mark P]

Good Morning All;

 

The main point when discussing any possible set of plans for a model  of a ship from this period is that there is no 'true' draught, or picture, of any vessel which can be used as a reliable basis for a reconstruction. Any draughts wich exist are modern, or relatively modern. If we are lucky we know the length of the keel, the greatest breadth, and the depth in hold. Using these, and following known conventions and methods of the times, it is possible to make a reasonable reconstruction. Lengths of masts and yards are available to anyone who knows where to look, and it is even possible to know something of the decorative works applied to some ships. However, these measurements are only recorded for warships, and there is often some variation between various sources. 

 

But overall, the information is far less than that which is required to be certain that any draught drawn is a true representation. Accept this, draw a draught if you can, or use the one available in Peter Kirsch's excellent book, which is probably as near to the truth as it is possible to get, and make the best quality of model which one can. Or use a draught from a reputable kit/plan supplier which is at least based on some level of research (if it is possible to find this out; other members here may know more in this respect)

 

Opinions of the finished result's verisimilitude may vary, but if you have done the best possible, using the avaiable resources, no-one can say that it is not a true likeness, as there is no comparator to set it against. Contemporary engravings look like caricatures, or cartoons. Certainty is unachievable. 

 

Enjoy the research, enjoy the build process, and admire the finished model, with the words we all know in your head: 'I wish I had done that/those bits a little better', and use the lessons learned in your next model.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

Edited January 26 by Mark P

[Giorgik63]

-Thanks Baker for the pdfs, so I have some sources to read. I purchased Peter Kirsch's book "The Galleon - The Great Ships of the Armada Era".

 

-Yes, Mark P, you are certainly right, unfortunately sometimes I find it particularly difficult to find information (also bearing in mind the cost of some books from abroad, for us here in Italy, we don't surf much "in gold", there is a strong air of deep crisis here 😞 ).

 

 

 

Edited January 26 by Giorgik63
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