Copper plate overlapping (< > 1794) - lower overlaps upper or vice versa?

[allanyed]

On 2/3/2024 at 12:43 PM, Thukydides said:

Alternatively is it possible the false keel was still coppered?

You may be right, but if it's sacrificial, why waste the copper?  Also, there is no mention of coppering the false keel in the contracts mentioned in post #9, only that there is copper between the false keel and keel which is turned up.  Still, all new for me so a good day!!

Allan

Edited February 4 by allanyed

[dafi]

Here some additional remarks from my collection of historical copper:

St. Georges rudder in Thorsminde, much patched but apparently mostely the lower plate overlaping the upper one.

 

A spanish vessel lower one overlapping the upper one (drawn from a perished french forum)

 

 

A picture of Bruno Orsel, unknown merchant vessel showing the same

 

 

Nationaal archief Den Haag - Zugangsnummer: 1.01.47.29, Inv. Nr. 15 von ca. 1780. Die Platten waren 4 Fuß lang und 14 Daumen breit. Die Überlappung betrug 1 Daumen. Amsterdamer Maß. 1 Fuß 283 mm, ein Daumen 25,727.. mm. (Thanks to Werner) My interpretation of the thicker red line is that the upper overlaps the lower plate

This could be an english original for the drawing above. Even with a copper sample 🙂

Nationaal archief Den Haag, Zugangsnummer 1.01.47.21 - Inv. Nr.: 112.

San Francisco Maritime, National Historical Park, California, On permanent exhibit in the Maritime Museum is a portion of the hull and the rudder of the ship NIANTIC, which was beached at Montgomery Street during the Gold Rush and become a store and hotel. The vessel housed the boot shop of abolitionists.

Intersting that the fittings on the hull were overplated, the fittings of the rudder were not ...

 

Cutty Sark in 1872 after she lost her rudder, lower one over the upper one

 

Historical picture of the Victory, lower over upper

Just see how evenly it was layied 😉 Just like St. George´s copper.

 

 

Not contemporary but nicely to be seen on Constitution 😉

 

Jyland, were old meets new.

 

 

And for those who like films 🙂

 

Boston Tea Party Tours - Copper Cladding Begins | #11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TP5qGce...E78C06557ABDA9B

Boston Tea Party Tours - More Copper Ship Cladding | #13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpVQ-EIGZW4

Boston Tea Party Museums - Copper Cladding | #17
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZdH-r5a_HQ

Boston Tea Party Museums - Fitting The Rudder | #18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO4uwCVIhwA

Boston Tea Party Museums - Damaged Beaver | #19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcL2yVlri-w

Edited February 5 by dafi

[Thukydides]

1 hour ago, dafi said:

This could be an english original for the drawing above. Even with a copper sample 🙂

Is this from a national archives document?

[dafi]

Nationaal archief Den Haag, Number 1.01.47.21 - Inv. Nr.: 112.

 

I also added it to the entry

 

XXXDAn

Edited February 5 by dafi

[Knocklouder]

I can add a false keel  but who's going to see but us .  So after reading this thread, I over lap mine, just followed the instructions lol. But now not sure if it is, done right but it will do lol.

Edited February 7 by Knocklouder

[dafi]

History shows both versions, without and with coppered false keel. So pick one 🙂

 

We had another discussion concerning this topic, and it seems, that sometimes while recoppering the false keel was not removed and overcoppered. Lazy bastards 🙂

 

All the best, Daniel

Edited February 9 by dafi

[allanyed]

25 minutes ago, dafi said:

We had another discussion concerning this topic, and it seems, that sometimes while recoppering the false keel was not removed and overcoppered. Lazy bastards 🙂

Started my day off with a good laugh, thanks for the post😁😁

[dafi]

Thank you Alan, my pleasure!

 

Her some more real old copper, seen in museum in Oudeschild Texel, where the famous dioprama of the roadstead with the dutch fleet is shown.

 

Just enjoy the laying pattern, the adjustments in the edges and around the fittings, the patches and my favorite piece: the hole of the rudder jeer  🙂

 

Edited February 9 by dafi

[allanyed]

Dafi,

Those photos are great to see.  Comparing the number and size of the nails on each plate in a real situation confirms the many comments here at MSW and elsewhere that at smaller scales, it is nigh impossible to accurately replicate these on a model ship at scales smaller than 1:48.  With the many out-of-scale plates and nail dents (or worse, rivet like bumps) that we see the idea of plain copper tape or just painting the bottom will look more realistic. 

Allan

[dafi]

Hello Alan, yes I am completely with you, most of the times the riveting is out of scale at small scales.

At my Vic at 1:100 I refused for that reason for a long time to simulate the riveting until I found something in the shelf of the bathroom: a derma-roller of my then dear lady :-0

A torture instrument in my very eyes, I saw the other qualities, I disassembled one and gave a different distance for the spiky wheels and a new handle and then things kept rolling 😉

The result was quite like I feelt it should look like, very subtle to the naked eye, it gives a kind of structure that is feeling quite welcome on the whole of the coppering.

 

I also opted for the naked keel.

 

 

I know the basic flaw are the overscaled scales of the Heller kit, but over all it leaves a "good impression."

 

XXXDAn

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 9 by dafi

[allanyed]

4 hours ago, dafi said:

At my Vic at 1:100 I refused for that reason for a long time to simulate the riveting until I found something in the shelf of the bathroom: a derma-roller of my then dear lady :-0

By far one the nicest renditions, especially at that scale, and I love the false keel being bare and stapled!!! VERY REALISTIC--  KUDOS!!

Allan

[dafi]

Thank you Alan!

 

XXXDAn

 

PS: And before anyone asks: NO!

The misappropriation of the derma-roller was not the reason of separation ...

 

[wefalck]

Somehow, I had the opposite experience: when the lady, who now has been my wife for 16 years, first saw my workshop, she called it a 'torture chamber'.

 

At some stage I also noticed these 'derma-rollers' on ebay, but found that the needles are pitched to wide (for my scale) - it's sometime interesting to browse the 'nails' and 'beauty' categories on ebay, as there may be useful 'tools' (if you are not put off by their garish colours).

 

 

[Thukydides]

It is interesting how in the pictures above there are sunk in straps around the whole rudder, but then the pintles are bolted to those straps. Was this a uniquely Dutch thing or was it used elsewhere?

 

One thing that is unclear to me from all this discussion is if the overlap needs to be such that the lower plates (those closer to the keel) overlap the upper plates (those closer to the waterline), then how do you keep the plates parallel to the keel as practically speaking doing plates from the keel up is not easy due to having to slip the next row under the previous one.

[Knocklouder]

Great discussion, being  a relatively new commer, do to my lack of knowledge as to how things are done I relie  on the instructions  lol.  When I coppered mine I followed the book, Chris Watton designed the Pegasus  so how could I go wrong.

 I guess it up to the modeler, start at the water line and work down or start at the keel and work up. Leave the keel open or cover it with copper. 

 After you finish something you always find something better and you say to your self I should have done it like  that. Lol 😆 

Edited February 9 by Knocklouder
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