How to make flat rope coils?

[vossy]

Hi, can anyone suggest a method to make flat rope coils to lay on the deck behind gun carriages etc?

 

These cause me all sorts of grief.

 

Thanks.

 

[Keith Black]

 See Bob's post #181 in his build log.

 

 

[Bob Cleek]

Use canned clear shellac (about a 2 pound cut - Zinsser Bullseye brand or equivalent) to cause the line to stiffen. Shellac is dissolved in alcohol. As the alcohol evaporates, the shellac soaked into the line will begin to harden and the line can be formed into any shape. Once the shellac has dried (within minutes) the line will be stiff and hold whatever shape you have given it. If more working time is needed, simply apply additional alcohol and the shellac will soften again. 

 

Results example below. Coils made on a form consisting of map pins placed into a wooden base around which the coils were wound. Coils were installed on the model, softened with alcohol, and formed in place to depict normal hanging behavior of full-size line.

[Dr PR]

Coiling lines on deck is a popular modelling technique, especially for gun tackle rigging. It is "pretty" but would never happen on a ship at sea. The lines would soon scatter into a tangled mess on a rolling deck. Lines would be coiled only in port, and then only when the ship was undergoing inspection or open to the public for special visiting days. At other times the decks would be cleared and the gun tackle might even be stowed below.

 

How are you planning your model? Is it rigged for action at sea or just idle and tied to the pier?

[popeye2sea]

Not only that but a loose coil will quickly kink and become fouled when it runs out.

 

Regards,

Henry

[BANYAN]

Hi Vossey,

 

I will try to describe the technique I use for 'cheesing' the tail ends of tackles. Not my original idea, but it works well for me.  First soak your rope/thread, cut to an appropriate size (if doing separate) in a diluted solution of PVS/water ( I use about a 60 water/40 PVA).  If using the actual tail end of the tackle, this still works but just soak the required length of the tail (working end of the falls)

 

I use two small squares (or round) of clear plastic (from shirt boxes or the like).  I punch a pin (usually a tack with raised plastic head) through both (See Photo).  Separate the two leaving the upper plastic square/round on the pin, and put the outer/tail end of the rope/thread through the centre hole of the bottom square with about 1 to 2mm protruding to the bottom side.  Put the pin back into this such that it holds the end and makes a sandwich with the thread between both plastic squares.  Now rotate either the assembly or wind the thread around the centre pin to start making a flat cheesed coil to the desired diameter.  Allow the finished coil to dry before removing; the plastic does not let them stick too much but still take some care when separating the coil from the plastic.  These 'jigs' are so easy and cheap to make you can dispose and remake as required, especially when the centre holes become too large from wear/use.

 

Just one way to do it.  

 

 

cheers

 

Pat

 

 

[vossy]

1 hour ago, BANYAN said:

Hi Vossey,

 

I will try to describe the technique I use for 'cheesing' the tail ends of tackles. Not my original idea, but it works well for me.  First soak your rope/thread, cut to an appropriate size (if doing separate) in a diluted solution of PVS/water ( I use about a 60 water/40 PVA).  If using the actual tail end of the tackle, this still works but just soak the required length of the tail (working end of the falls)

 

I use two small squares (or round) of clear plastic (from shirt boxes or the like).  I punch a pin (usually a tack with raised plastic head) through both (See Photo).  Separate the two leaving the upper plastic square/round on the pin, and put the outer/tail end of the rope/thread through the centre hole of the bottom square with about 1 to 2mm protruding to the bottom side.  Put the pin back into this such that it holds the end and makes a sandwich with the thread between both plastic squares.  Now rotate either the assembly or wind the thread around the centre pin to start making a flat cheesed coil to the desired diameter.  Allow the finished coil to dry before removing; the plastic does not let them stick too much but still take some care when separating the coil from the plastic.  These 'jigs' are so easy and cheap to make you can dispose and remake as required, especially when the centre holes become too large from wear/use.

 

Just one way to do it.  

 

 

cheers

 

Pat

 

 

Thanks Pat, this is the exact type of solution I was hoping to find. Will give it a go.

 

Chris

 

[Bob Cleek]

3 hours ago, BANYAN said:

I will try to describe the technique I use for 'cheesing' the tail ends of tackles.

Interesting. I've never heard the term "cheesing" used before. I presume this is a reference to a "wheel" of cheese. It's also called "Flemishing" or a "Flemish coil." I suppose this was a reference to where it was commonly done. Banyan gave a number of good reasons against flemishing line on deck. There's more. Long exposure to weather and UV will cause uneven deterioration on the surface of the line is another one. A properly Flemished coil will run fair, however. This requires that the working end of the line is pulled from the center of the coil. The "bitter end" should always end on the outside of the "coil" (pad) and not in the center. The way a Flemish coil is created in real life is that the coil begins in the center and the entire (growing) coil is turned round and round on the deck while lying flat until the bitter end is reached. As Banyan said, it was only done for display purposes at formal inspections, but was never done in ordinary use.

[BANYAN]

Hi Bob, agree your reasoning WRT using such coils.  These coils may have been a bit more commonly used than perhaps thought.  Further to Bob's comments, even in this day and age (well when I was in the service at least) where synthetic cordage is commonly used (and more prone to the effects of UV), these decorative coils were in common use for rope whenever the ship was in harbour/at the buoy or at anchor.  When underway 'proper' working coils were always used. These coils are also evident in images of HMCSS Victoria (1855).  It appears this may have been the general practice in RN ships (or military type ships) back then also, as can be seen in the following photograph (c.1858) of the gun tackle working parts being cheesed (or more correctly - Flemish coiled).  The vessel was in harbour (moored) at the time.

 

On 4/28/2024 at 3:08 PM, Bob Cleek said:

This requires that the working end of the line is pulled from the center of the coil.

However, I must offer a point of difference in opinion WRT to how they were unwound.  When reforming the coils, or taking the coil in hand, we would 'unwind' it from out to in by grasping the rope/line near the block or securing device, then walking the line out.  This was the opposite to the way it was made up, which minimised the risk or tendency of the rope to kink, and allowed the rope to unwind with its lay.  That said, other Services/ships may have done it differently.

 

cheers

 

Pat

 

[Bob Cleek]

On 4/29/2024 at 6:13 PM, BANYAN said:

However, I must offer a point of difference in opinion WRT to how they were unwound.  When reforming the coils, or taking the coil in hand, we would 'unwind' it from out to in by grasping the rope/line near the block or securing device, then walking the line out.  This was the opposite to the way it was made up, which minimised the risk or tendency of the rope to kink, and allowed the rope to unwind with its lay.  That said, other Services/ships may have done it differently.

Yes, you have stated it correctly. I got it bass-ackwards. Sometimes it's a lot easier to do something relying on "muscle memory," than it is to write an instruction on how to do it! 

 

The photo above is indeed correct. What I should have said was that the coil begins with the bitter end in the center and is rotated until the line is fully coiled with the working end of the line running off of the outside of the coil. Obviously. it one tried to rotate the coil on the flat of the deck with the working (belayed) end in the center, the line would twist up between the center of the coil and the belaying point and get all kinky! Thanks for spotting the error!

 

BOB 

[rwiederrich]

Well....I'm simple man and I never gave it to much thought...as to many techniques.   For all my models....I use a simple method.  I just spread a thin layer of clear drying wood glue on a plastic surface.

 

Then I simply begin in the center and roll around the rope on itself edge to edge...till I have the desired amount laid out.  Then using a sharp tool or tweezer, I slowly pic it up from the glue and relocate it on the area needing a rope coil.  I make some mods...adjusting for proper lay and....Shazamm!   It stays exactly where placed and it dries clear.  I use this method for all rope coil needs.

 

Here is a pic to show the finished item.

Rob

Edited May 1 by rwiederrich

[paul ron]

i once asked the same question many years ago and no one heard of doing a ballentine. flat coils will foul if allowed to run.

 

when i spent time on an old schooner, i learned the proper way to coil a working rope using a ballentine technique described below...

https://captnmike.com/2011/10/03/coiling-line-using-the-ballantine-coil-on-the-adventuress/

 

was this ballentine method of coiling ropes used in the 1800s? 

 

[Bob Cleek]

2 hours ago, paul ron said:

i once asked the same question many years ago and no one heard of doing a ballentine. flat coils will foul if allowed to run.

 

when i spent time on an old schooner, i learned the proper way to coil a working rope using a ballentine technique described below...

https://captnmike.com/2011/10/03/coiling-line-using-the-ballantine-coil-on-the-adventuress/

 

was this ballentine method of coiling ropes used in the 1800s? 

 

That's an excellent explanation of how to make a Ballentine coil. There are a number of ways to coil falls for the same purpose as a Ballentine coil. Other's make use of "figure-eight" faking, and so on. The original question, if I understand it correctly, addressed a "Flemished" line coil where the line lays in a tight flat coil on the deck without any overlapping turns. 

Edited May 1 by Bob Cleek

[allanyed]

14 hours ago, paul ron said:

ballentine method

This may be a little bit on the edge of the rope coiling topic which has been very informative.    Now I know where the beer logo came from or more likely the other way around and the rope coils are named for the beer logo.  If there is indeed really some connection with the Ballantine name for what looks similar to Borromean rings the connection with the rope coiling name may be related.   Ballantine opened their brewery in 1840 but the logo came about nearly 40 years later.  Legend has it that Peter Ballantine saw three wet rings from bottles on a table that overlapped and came up with the logo from that.

 

Allan