Staghound 1850 by rwiederrich - 1/96 - Extreme Clipper

rwiederrich · July 19

11 minutes ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

Looking at the picture Rob posted and noting that the launch of the Staghound was in December of 1850, it did not appear to have a split topsail initially ... so was likely retrofitted by the mid 1850s.

Your right, not until late 1853~ mid 1854 did Many begin to accept and change to the Howes rigged double topsail. McKay's Great Republic(1853), initially was rigged with the Forbes double topsail design...which Howes modified and improved. Every McKay clipper after was rigged with Howes designed double topsails.

Rob

ClipperFan · July 19

5 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Preparing myself for the upcoming construction...I wanted to post another painting of Staghound.

@rwiederrich Rob, pretty painting. Is this piece by David Thimgan?

rwiederrich · July 19

I believe so. I plan on rigging her in this manner...without the Howes double topsails. I want to keep that ginormous topsail to show how much sail had to be brought in when that monster had to be furled.

Sailors could loose and furl that sail several times in the course of a watch....and in the freezing rain, in the dead of night...it was a stinker.

It wasn't till the dawn of the Downeaster that the double topgallant came into practice. So much easier on the crew if you have to drop and furl half the canvas. Plus in many cases you didn't even have to furl the upper topsail but drop it so it hid in front of the lower topsail...eliminating its effectiveness.

Rob

ClipperFan · July 19

3 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

I believe so. I plan on rigging her in this manner...without the Howes double topsails. I want to keep that ginormous topsail to show how much sail had to be brought in when that monster had to be furled.

Sailors could loose and furl that sail several times in the course of a watch....and in the freezing rain, in the dead of night...it was a stinker.

It wasn't till the dawn of the Downeaster that the double topgallant came into practice. So much easier on the crew if you have to drop and furl half the canvas. Plus in many cases you didn't even have to furl the upper topsail but drop it so it hid in front of the lower topsail...eliminating its effectiveness.

Rob

Rob,

Sailors who actually worked these massive clipper ships give really dramatic, first hand descriptions of the hellish conditions they dealt with in manhandling those behemoth sails. A particularly vivid tale involved bringing up a ain topsail, not even the course. It was freezing, sleeting rain, the wind was howling and there was a danger of losing the mast if the sails weren't immediately taken in. Climbing ratlines was treacherous with everything being frozen over. Driving rain nearly blinded the men. Then when they had to fuel the sail, it fought them like a wild banshee with the wind still partially filling it. As the fought to pull the stubborn canvas up, it also became evident it was a frozen sheet of ice too. Meanwhile the mast was swaying back and forth in wild gyrations with the movement of the massive ship below. I remember the sailor saying the slogan one hand for the ship and one for yourself was a lie. Often they had to use both hands to grab and lift the sails. Tragically a man fell to his death as a sudden shift knocked him off the yard. By the time he hit the water the ship had already left him far behind...

rwiederrich · July 19

Those stories are harrowing. Frozen hands, and feet...not to mention hungry and tired. The life has been romanticized till all the reality of such labors has been forgotten.

Rob

Glen McGuire · July 19

Just discovered this build log, Rob. I will follow along with interest. What a majestic subject you've chosen!

ClipperFan · July 19

58 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Those stories are harrowing. Frozen hands, and feet...not to mention hungry and tired. The life has been romanticized till all the reality of such labors has been forgotten.

Rob

Rob,

Reading exploits of "Jack Tar" really gives you an appreciation for their steely nerves and determination. Actually many clipper ships were known as Hell ships because of the incredibly, insane way ship's captains pushed ship and crew often to the breaking point and beyond. One of the most amazing events involved Captain Lauchlan McKay (Donald's brother) and the maiden voyage of the Sovereign of the Seas. During an October gale the ship lost her main topmast went over the side,taking with it fore topmast, fore yard, every stitch of sail on the foremast and mizzen it the mizzen topgallant mast. Captain McKay emphatically told his entire crew of nearly 100 that under no circumstances was any line to be cut. In a week both topmasts, topsail yards and fore yard were all aloft with sails bent. In 12 days, they completely rebuilt everything as if the disaster had never occured!

KeithAug · July 20

On 7/17/2024 at 3:00 PM, FriedClams said:

I've popped in and out of your previous builds, but this will be first I've got in on from the beginning.

Ditto

ClipperFan · July 21

2 hours ago, KeithAug said:

Ditto

@KeithAug welcome aboard! I had the distinct pleasure of being involved with Rob, Vladimir and Druxey in our years long development of the authentic appearance of McKay's final Medium clipper Glory of the Seas. The best surprise of all, which allowed us to take our investigation to a whole new level was direct involvement with author Michael Mjelde. His guidance with rare documents and pictures not even in his books were incredibly helpful.

This Stag Hound build is moving at Warp Speed in comparison. Vladimir's struggling with reconciling 3 different interpretations of her body lines but I'm confident we will soon resolve that.

rwiederrich · July 21

It’s funny that there can be several other drawings that slightly differ. , when in fact NcKay’s half model contains all the raw data. The trouble lays with interpretation. We need to reconcile them , forcing them to agree with the half model. Even though, as a builders reference, it lacks the keel and monkey rail.
Hence the rub of reconciliation.

Behind the scenes……much deliberation and study have been employed thus far. To keep these initial pages as limited as possible.

Folks like to see model building being done on a model building log.

Much will follow when the paperwork is settled on, so wood can be cut.
Full speed ahead….and on till morning.

Rob

ClipperFan · July 21

9 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

It’s funny that there can be several other drawings that slightly differ. , when in fact NcKay’s half model contains all the raw data. The trouble lays with interpretation. We need to reconcile them , forcing them to agree with the half model. Even though, as a builders reference, it lacks the keel and monkey rail.
Hence the rub of reconciliation.

Behind the scenes……much deliberation and study have been employed thus far. To keep these initial pages as limited as possible.

Folks like to see model building being done on a model building log.

Much will follow when the paperwork is settled on, so wood can be cut.
Full speed ahead….and on till morning.

Rob

@rwiederrich

@Vladimir_Wairoa just let me know that on paper Crothers plans are accurate. The problem is photographic distortion. So he's going to see if he can get a more accurate scan. Meanwhile, I suggested he overlay the 1881 Henry Hall lines over Crothers. Not because they're more detailed, as obviously they're not but because they're already scans. I downloaded them directly from Google Books. In these comparisons it's very obvious that the more desirable Crothers body plan has a subtle shift to left while both scans of the Hall plans are Arrow straight vertical. As far as being able to produce accurate bulkheads which align with the Cornelius McKay model, this issue is the only sticking point remaining. So, if anyone reading this can make a clean scan of Crothers from "The American Built Clipper Ship 1850-1856" and post it here. It would be greatly appreciated.

ClipperFan · July 22

@rwiederrich

@Vladimir_Wairoa

Here's a 1:96th scale conceptual sketch of the rear portico on Stag Hound. Tolerances are tight but it all works. Dimensions: 8 ft square x 8 ft high, with 6 inch fore and aft overhangs and 1 ft port and Starboard overhangs, with 32 inch high surrounding rail and dual ladders. Portico is recessed 4 ft with port and starboard rearward sliding doors. It's located 7 feet away from the center of the 30 inch wide mizzenmast, which has a 1&1/2 inch per foot rake.

An alternative would be a flush mounted portico with single front opening door. Let me know if you like this or do you think flush mount makes more sense?

Edited July 22 by ClipperFan
additional information

druxey · July 22

Sliding doors make sense, I think. Just an uninformed opinion.

ClipperFan · July 22

7 minutes ago, druxey said:

Sliding doors make sense, I think. Just an uninformed opinion.

@druxey sliding doors were what we saw on the front fascia of the rear coach house on Glory of the Seas. Probably because it's safer than swinging doors in rough seas.

What makes sense that this is the most likely portico arrangement is that it also gives sailors roof access to the spider band supporting the mizzen spanker boom. A portico further back would make that impossible.

ClipperFan · July 22

Portico close-up demonstrates how close everything is.

rwiederrich · July 22

I like your representation. It accounts for many unknowns...but still meet the Duncan account. Doesn't leave much room for mast flexure(Hopefully there wasn't much of that).

Rob

ClipperFan · July 22

On 7/22/2024 at 8:54 AM, rwiederrich said:

I like your representation. It accounts for many unknowns...but still meet the Duncan account. Doesn't leave much room for mast flexure(Hopefully there wasn't much of that).

Rob

@rwiederrich

exactly the same thing I was wondering about. If you look closely at the starboard image of Glory of the Seas bow, there's a small iron brace to prevent the inner bobstay chain from abrading the cutwater. Would such a similar brace had been employed at the front of the portico to stabilize the mizzenmast and prevent such instability? Just a thought.

Edited August 30 by ClipperFan
word correction

rwiederrich · July 22

12 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

@rwiederrich

exactly the same thing I was wondering about. If you look closely at the starboard image of Glory of the Sead bow, there's a small iron brace to prevent the inner bobstay chain from abrading the cutwater. Would such a similar brace had been employed at the front of the portico to stabilize the mizzenmast and prevent such instability? Just a thought.

Yes...I noticed that a while ago, while researching her. I think that brace is an effort to stabilize her warping and sagging due to age and hogging. Same goes for the iron rods supporting her Hood. And remember when I asked about the anchor billboards....Glory didn't have any.......Well not till she was near her later years.....cuz she Shure had some installed some time in her latter life....cuz she has them in this image before she was scrapped... image.png.16f0bc91616227ed3e3d2e76eeb86676.png

ClipperFan · July 22

3 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Yes...I noticed that a while ago, while researching her. I think that brace is an effort to stabilize her warping and sagging due to age and hogging. Same goes for the iron rods supporting her Hood. And remember when I asked about the anchor billboards....Glory didn't have any.......Well not till she was near her later years.....cuz she Shure had some installed some time in her latter life....cuz she has them in this image before she was scrapped...

@rwiederrich good catch on those modifications. It makes sense that they would have been done to add further protection of an aging vessel. What do you think of the idea of a brace around the mizzenmast to prevent it damaging the roof of the portico, since due to rake, it's practically on top of the roof? Is there a disadvantage from not having access to the spiderband supporting the spanker boom? If we make the portico flush, it solves clearance issue but then easy access to that spanker boom is gone. The only other approach is a bigger square portico, surrounding the mizzenmast which would then exit from the rear of the portico roof and everything would rig to it there. There's a painting of the huge, elegantly decorated James Baine dining room where the mizzenmast is actually in the center of the aisle.

Edited July 22 by ClipperFan
additional information

rwiederrich · July 22

53 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

@rwiederrich good catch on those modifications. It makes sense that they would have been done to add further protection of an aging vessel. What do you think of the idea of a brace around the mizzenmast to prevent it damaging the roof of the portico, since due to rake, it's practically on top of the roof? Is there a disadvantage from not having access to the spiderband supporting the spanker boom? If we make the portico flush, it solves clearance issue but then easy access to that spanker boom is gone. The only other approach is a bigger square portico, surrounding the mizzenmast which would then exit from the rear of the portico roof and everything would rig to it there. There's a painting of the huge, elegantly decorated James Baine dining room where the mizzenmast is actually in the center of the aisle.

Well McLean says the portico is aft of the mizzen. Champelle's rendering puts the portico in just about the same place that you placed it...without the roof access and stanchioned rail. I'm opting to keep this configuration since it found resolution with others. Also his poop height and portico roof align with the main rail and monkey rail prospectively.

As far as the spider band is concerned.....since the mizzen has a fife rail...no spider band is needed...just the spanker boom foot rest. The spanker gaff lift can be purchased and belayed at the fife rail.....unless the forward portico roof rail can also act as a fife rail...which would make sense.

Rob

rwiederrich · July 22

16 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Portico close-up demonstrates how close everything is.

I see you used a 36" door...why not a 28" door...that would save you 8" extending the clearance between the portico roof and the mizzen.....?

Rob

Edited July 22 by rwiederrich

Luis Felipe · July 22

Hi Rob:

Congratulations for this new exiting project. I have been also looking at it, but no ready yet to start the woodworking. Adding some pictures and my initial drawings..

image.png.566c75323f79f00cf79db515e362669e.png

image.png.cd83c14425d991c580a0b02daf2b1c8d.png

Luis Felipe · July 22

Also, in the Crothers book there is a midship section, in this picture is overlapped on the hull lines:

image.png.ffdebf238d8f55b02f0657cf3bfbcdd8.png

ClipperFan · July 22

54 minutes ago, Luis Felipe said:

Also, in the Crothers book there is a midship section, in this picture is overlapped on the hull lines:

@Luis Felipe

great scan! Vladimir has been trying to created bulkheads from another picture of this same plan but it's slightly distorted, so it's not accurate. I emailed these to him to see if they will do the trick.

ClipperFan · July 23

1 hour ago, Luis Felipe said:

Hi Rob:

Congratulations for this new exiting project. I have been also looking at it, but no ready yet to start the woodworking. Adding some pictures and my initial drawings..

@Luis Felipe welcome aboard! Thank you for the beautiful Stag Hound artwork. I recognize the first and last pieces as those by Cape Cod artist Frank Vining Smith.

This is going to be a wonderful project, which is already proceeding quite rapidly. Rob can't wait to start making wood chips fly.

Meanwhile Vladimir has been struggling to reconcile the Crothers body plan in order to create computer generated bulkheads. He will most likely do 2 sets at 1:96th & 1:72nd scale once ready. I love the plans you're already drafting. To help you avoid "reinventing the wheel" by revisiting work we've already done there's some items I want to make you familiar with.

First our #1 most reliable source for the sheer profile of Stag Hound has been decided. It's the 1:48 scale, 4 feet, 8 & 1/2 inches half hull model crafted by Donald McKay's own son, Cornelius in 1850. He describes in his letter to Captain Arthur H Clark how he literally had access to lofting lines of the actual ship as she was being built. There is no more reliably documented resource. Unfortunately there's no body plan yet found by him, although he says in his letter such a drawing exists.

Vladimir overlayed the McKay bow profile onto my reconstructed bow based on the 1881 Henry Hall lines, which were directly downloaded from Google books, so there's no distortion.

The other solidly reliable resource is the December 21, 1850 Boston Daily Atlas article written by Duncan McLean. Since Stag Hound was Donald McKay's premier, inaugural extreme clipper and the largest merchant vessel of her type in the world, more specific details than usual were supplied. One such pithy fact is that the center of the mizzenmast was actually 2 feet further away from the fore of the poop deck. It's due to a glossed-over fact that the sternpost had a rake of 2 feet aft! So instead of 5 feet it's actually 7 feet away. Now there's enough room to fit an 8 foot square portico, recessed 4 feet. Here's a link to this fascinating article:

http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/News/BDA/BDA(1850-12-21).html

I look forward to your contributions. I'm still blown away by your fabulous scratch-built tea clipper Sir Lancelot.

Edited July 23 by ClipperFan
grammar correction

rwiederrich · July 23

16 hours ago, Luis Felipe said:

Congratulations for this new exiting project. I have been also looking at it, but no ready yet to start the woodworking. Adding some pictures and my initial drawings..

Wow Luis...you've been busy. So, I'm assuming your search for another AMERICAN clipper has landed you on the Staghound? I hope you feel comfortable in joining us as we finalize her hull and deck furniture.

Again....good to see again.

Rob

ClipperFan · July 23

@rwiederrich

@Vladimir_Wairoa

@Luis Felipe

I rechecked Stag Hound mizzenmast diameter and realized that a 30 inch diameter I was working with was incorrect. It's actually 26 inches. That mere 4 inches gives more clearance to the rear portico conceptual rail. Here's my revised sketch, done at 1:48th scale. At least I believe that's the correct scale for 1/4th inch =:1 foot. I used a door design taken directly from one removed from Glory of the Seas.

rwiederrich · July 23

2 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

@rwiederrich

@Vladimir_Wairoa

@Luis Felipe

I rechecked Stag Hound mizzenmast diameter and realized that a 30 inch diameter I was working with was incorrect. It's actually 26 inches. That mere 4 inches gives more clearance to the rear portico conceptual rail. Here's my revised sketch, done at 1:48th scale. At least I believe that's the correct scale for 1/4th inch =:1 foot. I used a door design taken directly from one removed from Glory of the Seas.

Good call Rich. See……if we keep chiseling away at the slight errors …..the truth reveals itself. I’m liking your remake, it’s looking more like what I envisioned too.

Rob

rwiederrich · July 23

Rich, we know the the rake of all her masts, per Duncan McLean is 1ft per 8ft. Which equates to 6deg. Reviewing Chapelle’s drawing…..he has the main and mizzen at 6deg, but the fore is only 4deg……? Are we missing something or did ole Chapelle’s, miss something?

Rob

Bill Morrison · July 23

On 7/19/2024 at 3:40 PM, rwiederrich said:

Those stories are harrowing. Frozen hands, and feet...not to mention hungry and tired. The life has been romanticized till all the reality of such labors has been forgotten.

Rob

I strongly recommend watching The Bounty with Anthony Hopkins and Mel Brooks to really get an idea of life at sea trying to round the Horn. It wasn't an easy endeavor. I'm surprised more sailors weren't lost. Also, Gordon Lightfoot released a son called Ghosts of Cape Horn and Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald that stressed the dangers of a life at sea. These are worth a watch and a listen.

Bill

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