Laser cut admiralty frames.

[overdale]

 I was looking at a book of navy board models last night and a terribly heretical thought occurred to me.

So much of modern kit production is laser cut, I wondered what the pitfalls in making a set of laser cut frames for an admiralty style model might be?  The obvious thing that springs to mind is the edges of the wood are burnt and would have to be cleaned up. They would also probably have to be slightly oversize to allow for fairing etc. I suspect the variation in timber expansion rates etc would make it difficult to make them reliably for mass produced kits that might sit on a shelf for months, but the cost of laser cutting is reasonably cheap these days for a 'one off'.  

 

So, as a purely technical exercise, is it possible or has it ever been done?

 

*Pulls on steel helmet and ducks into trench* 

 

Dan.

[realworkingsailor]

I think it has been done in a limited sense already. The Lumberyard's Oneida comes with all the frames laser cut. I think the bigger issue is the limited market. Although on here you may see a very strong enthusiastic positive response, but as large as this group of dedicated ship modellers is, I don't think we're the whole global market. Maybe in the future it will become economically viable... You never know...

 

Andy

[Chuck]

The issue with most major large MFG's is that they cant find folks to design them,   They take a long time to laser cut all of the extra parts.  Laser time is expensive.   Then based on the price point for the kit there would probably be fewer sales.  Even if all of the parts are laser cut it will be an advanced level kit for a small percentage of the market.  Most POF builders want to use better wood as well.  For folks at that level in the hobby,  most will want to scratch build it all.  It doesnt leave much of a market except for smaller subjects.

 

But like Don said,  there are a few out there and they make wonderful models.

 

I dont see too many more coming from other mainstream MFGs though.  If anything,  the smaller boutique MFGs might come out with more like the Lumberyard.  Lets hope so.  

 

Chuck

[allanyed]

Frames are made of floors, futtocks and top timbers so the grain is running straight for as long a run as possible to give strength.  Unless plywood is used, or the frames are sistered and  each part of the two has the grain running in opposite directions a frame cut from a sheet of wood will have weak points where ever the grain runs near 90 degrees to the long axis of the frame. 

Allan

[trippwj]

There is also the Model Shipways Emma C. Berry fishing smack that is POF using laser cut framing.  an advantage to this style of boat is that the frames weren't at all like the large ship - on the real smack, the frame was only a single piece from keel to deck, same as the model.

[rdsaplala]

If i remember correctly, Bob Hunt went the whole hog and made a laser cut kit of the fully framed swan class ship kingfisher, i think nearly all the individual frame components were laser cut in that particular model but due to the complex and numerous components, the major drawback was that the price was quite high and prohibitive.

 

Edit: My mistake when I said laser cut, I meant CNC cut (thanks for the correction, Andy).

Edited October 2, 2013 by rdsaplala

[realworkingsailor]

Aldo, that kit wasn't laser, but CnC cut.

 

Andy

[allanyed]

Wayne,

Are the frames in two pieces or one?  I cannot imagine a tree wide and long enough from which a complete frame can be cut to cover the height and beam.  Maybe a giant redwood?

Allan

[trippwj]

Wayne,

Are the frames in two pieces or one?  I cannot imagine a tree wide and long enough from which a complete frame can be cut to cover the height and beam.  Maybe a giant redwood?

Allan

 

Frames are in 2 pieces - one port one starboard.  Some meet mid keel some mount to either sid of the keel.  Some have a floor across the front at the keel where they meet some do not.  Definitely not a sequoia framing source!!!  :P

[Erik Nyren]

Hello

This is what I have learned from working on the LSS Kingfisher kit mentioned above. (Expencive OH YES but the learning curve while building this kit is the best modeling school I could have asked for)

I would say that the bottom part of the frame is called "floor timbers" Theese sits on the actual keel. I would imagine that those would have been made from a single piece of timber on a original ship. On top of the floor timbers comes the futtock timbers on each side, and ontop of theese the top timbers. Basicly your basic frame has five pieces to them. Cant frames at the bow and stern of a ship would have been made from fewer timbers, basicly omitting the futtoc timbers. Theese front and back frames would have been constructed in two parts fastened to each side of the keel, or rather the apron at the bow of the ship and the deadwood at the tail.

 

Basicly as Chuck states above the construction of a frame is to complicated for a mainstreem kit and would be far to expencive to mass produce for a small part of the market. Then to continue with the amount of generic parts, out of scale and historicly incorrect details that often comes with your average kit, would be a shame on such intricate frame construction This meens that a manufacturer with any selfesteem would not go with generic parts for such a kit raising the prise even higher.

There are very good alternatives out there for instance the Triton online build on MSW. I have not tried this but it seems to be a great concept for the first time out scratch builder, especially the cross section.

 

Erik

 

(seems I like the word basic  )

Edited October 2, 2013 by Erik Nyren

[overdale]

Hi Erik,

 

were the frames in the Kingfisher kit all laser cut from one piece or were there several parts to each frame?. I just wondered from a strength point of view.

[Boatsinc2000]

Dan -

 

Each frame in that kit was constructed of individual parts or futtocks.  The thickness of each futtock decreases as you go from the lower ones or floors up to the top timbers.  So that means that there were separate sheets of differing thicknesses for each of the futtocks and in Hunt's Kingfisher they were all CNC cut from boxwood sheets.  Also some of the futtocks were offset or were cast forward or aft to go around gun ports.  All of the POF Swan builds on MSW along with Allan's Euryalus and Ed's Niad use this method of construction.  This style is the same as detailed in David Antscherl's Swan series books and it is historically correct.

 

In contrast, the Hahn plans used a stylized method of construction.  The frames are all the same thickness from the keel to the top and it does not use individual futtocks.  While the Hahn style is easier to construct, if you use the traditional "U" shaped construction to create the frame blanks then your wood requirements will be about 2-3 times more than using individual futtocks.

 

If you review some of the Echo cross section builds here on MSW they are a great learning tool for true frame construction.  The cross section was designed by David Antscherl and Greg Herbert, so it uses that method.  I always suggest that first time POF builders following this construction method start with this cross section because it is so educational.  It is really fun to see builders explore and discover the aspects of creating historically correct frames.  Check out Jim L's or some of the other logs under the that section.

 

As a point of clarification, I do supply the wood for those cross sections to Admiralty Models.

 

Hope that helps!

 

Jeff Hayes

HobbyMill