HMS Bellerophon 1786 by AON – scale 1:64 – 74-gun 3rd Rate Man of War - Arrogant-Class

[AON]

Today I finally started... sort of

  - milled down a strip of hemlock to the larger (inboard) thickness of 2'-2" (= 0.406" at 1/64th).  I managed to get 0.4045"

  - rubber cemented my templates to the strip of wood

 

  - rough cut out my very first piece staying close to or just outside the line

 

  - cut all other pieces

 

  - sanded into shape and fitted together

 

Everything looks reasonably good when clamped finger tight  ... except for the Gammoning Knee pieces.  The outer (forward) half does not sit correctly.

Flipped it over to inspect the reverse and again it is those two piece

 

When I remove them they fit together nicely all on their own.  Time to walk away and come at it fresh another day.  Not sure if this piece is salvageable or not.

 

I am obviously no cabinet maker and think I might need a small oscillating drum sander to assure I get a level sanded edge on those inside radii.

 

I took a lesson out of TFFM.  I milled a piece of oak to use as my chiseling base when cutting the scarphs and it made a big difference.

(Thank you David and Greg for a wonderful reference)

 

[AON]

Ed,

 

I was a bit concerned about my choice of using the rubber cement because of your comment regarding not being a fan of it.  So far it seemed to have worked well ... but it is quite early in the game yet.

 

On another note,  I will be cutting some monofilament line from my fly rod reel to test using it as per your response to my PM.  Possibly it needs to be roughed up a bit for the glue to anchor in.  Of course it is much lighter and GREEN as opposed to the black line you just used on your YA to simulate the bolts.  If it works I'll need to purchase a supply of black line.... that or copper wire and blackening.

 

Alan

Edited February 2, 2015 by AON

[mtaylor]

Alan,

 

Looking good.  I think your problem is were the red line is on this photo.... If you don't want to redo, work in that area so the piece rotates into place.

 

[AON]

Thank you Mark

 

That was my initial thought but I didn't want to jump in and bugger that piece also so thought it was best t walk away and come at it fresh.

It is nice to have someone who knows what they are doing come to the same conclusion

 

I think I'll stack the one on the other and attempt to trace the correcting cut line

 

I suspect it will not take much.... but not tonight

 

Alan

[druxey]

Don't try to clean up the curve with the stem yet, or glue up all the knee of the head components!  Make and glue up the stem pieces and keel first, then fit each individual piece of the knee of the head to the stem. Otherwise you will drive yourself crazy and overflow your scrap box.

[mtaylor]

Druxey's right...my bad.   I thought the rest of it was glued up already.     

[AON]

Okay Druxey and Mark.

I had planned on cutting and dry fitting the whole shabang before gluing anything.

 

But now I'll be wondering how I'll drill and bolt (pin) the pieces properly when it is one large assembly I'll be swinging around

 

I was thinking I would do the three sub-assemblies

  - stem post assembly

  - stern post assembly

  - keel, false keel and rising wood

Then I'd put these sub-assemblies together

 

It must be possible as 'youse guys' (as we say in Ontario) have surely done it.

 

5am, time to shovel snow or I'll never get to work today.... hmmmm, that would make more time for modeling.

 

Alan

Edited February 2, 2015 by AON

[EdT]

Have no fear, Alan.  I know I am fighting decades of model shipbuilding practice in my disdain for rubber cement.  I don't like the messy brush or the rubbery residue it leaves on the wood and there are times when it does not adhere. It requires solvent for cleaning and its shelf life is limited before it turns into rubber.   I only use it when I have to.  Its right above contact cement on my list - something else I have to use sometimes.  I'll take my 29 cent Elmer's glue sticks any day for paper on wood.

 

Looks like you are off to a good start - long way to go.

 

Cheers,

 

Ed

[AON]

Possibly I should not have bothered with the snow this morning as it is 8:18 am and I am the only fool that seems to have made it in to work... damn Subaru 

[druxey]

Some sub-assemblies work: where there is a flat mating surface, such as deadwood to keel. Some are near impossible, unless you are the world's most accurate model maker. The curved stem to knee of the head joint is an example. In that instance, one piece at a time is a better strategy. However, if you want to find out the hard way....

 

So, the Subaru 4-wheel drive got you to work this morning? Do you get merit points for making it in?

[AON]

Unfortunately I am the touchy feely kind of learner, where lessons better learnt by doing... so I'd rather not find out the hard way but I am sure I may somewhere down the road.

 

As for merit points... that is for boy scouts and girl guides....... I was a Sea Cadet!

I was taught to lead by example of which two men come to mind (Lt. Ken Garner and Cdr Admundson) as having made an impression of the type of leader I hope to be one day when I finally do grow up. 

 

So I came in to work because someone might be depending on me to do the right thing.... while all those wooses I work with slept in because it's a blizzard out there.  Hello, this is Canada, it snows here in the winter! 

[mtaylor]

Alan,

 

I was thinking that the stem could be assembled as a subassembly....  It can on the Hahn style models but then again, his plans show them as one piece.  But Druxey is right in that it "depends"...

[AON]

Unfortunately I will not get to working on cutting more wood until the weekend as my evenings are quite short making it difficult to get into it.

So I spend the short time through the week working on my frame templates.

 

Here is a description of what I am up to in my creation of frame templates following the train of thought of an earlier posting some time ago (POSTING #102 on PAGE 7) when I was working things out.

 

After outlining the complete frame (see earlier posting) at the particular station I now trace in the cross chock and all the various scarph joints for the adjacent four frames up to the next station.  They are used as a reference on the other frames.  As frame shapes begin to change drastically I will need to geometrically create the proper offset to relocate them.

 

I then loft the hull (or more correctly a one piece solid frame) between stations.  In this sample it is at dead flat out both directions to ( B ) and ( 2 )

 

I then draw in the “spaces” between the frames and cut them away to reveal the individual frames.  In this location the spaces are a mere ¼”.   In the pic below the adjacent frames are turned off to reveal only one that I will be working on.

 

I then open (or create) the plane cutting through the centre of the frame and open a sketch and trace the cross chock and particular scarph joints for that frame

 

Finally, looking straight onto the frame I see the frame shape and cutlines

 

I will insert this “section” view of this frame on my template sheet to be printed to 1:64 scale.  Once again as the frame shape begins to change drastically I may see the hidden lines depicting the cut angle... we will have to wait and see.

 

It is a long drawn out (excuse the pun) exercise but I will have what I want in the end.  A few done but many more to go.

I may not post anymore on the making of frame templates except to possibly show progress on the cant frames and aft and also to post PDFs of the drawings when I am done.  (Don't want to bore anyone)

 

[AON]

On another note... rather than cut monofilament line off my fly reel I called "the" tackle shop and they sell 40 lb test line at 3 cents a yard (seems cheap to me... I am expecting it to be 30 cents when I get there).

 

The 40 lb test is extremely close in diameter to my 1-1/2" diameter bolts or AWG 22 gauge copper wire.  Unfortunately he only has GREEN (a very popular colour) but good enough to test gluing it into wood.

 

If it works for me I can buy the black line at Canadian Tire, but it ain't cheap.  Compared to copper wire and blackening I suppose it is a wash.

 

Let you know how it works out.

Edited February 4, 2015 by AON

[druxey]

I guess copper bolts might turn green!

 

I assume that the scarph joints for the frames are deliberate, rather than the chocks that were actually used?

[EdT]

This is what I use, Alan.

 

http://stores.ebay.com/AMNESIA-FISHING-LINES/AMNESIA-FISHING-LINES-/_i.html?_fsub=1149399010&_dmd=2&_nkw=black

 

Ed

[AON]

Druxey,

 

Sorry for the late reply.

 

Although I've seen a few references showing in different ways (Cross chocks and scarph joints; cross chocks, futtock chocks;  cross chocks, futtock chocks and then scarph joints at higher elevations), but I believe the contract reads scarph joints at the futtocks with the exception of the floor timber to futtock joint which would be the next or adjacent frames which can be seen in the first image / sketch.

 

When I get home tonight I will re-read those sheets (and they can be tough to understand), scan and post.

 

Would they call a chock a scarph joint?

 

Alan

Edited February 4, 2015 by AON

[AON]

Ed

 

Thank you for the link.

Those prices are considerably less.

Did you purchase the spool or the box?

Any idea what length (feet) was supplied at that price

 

Alan

[Landrotten Highlander]

I looked at the description, it mentions 109 yards per spool.

hope this helps

Peter

 

P.S. following your log and learning as you go along, many thanks

Edited February 4, 2015 by Landrotten Highlander

[EdT]

Highlander has the answer.  The spools are 100 meters.  That should be several lifetimes worth of bolts.

 

I buy one spool.

 

Ed

[AON]

I looked again and didn't see the length .... and then I realized I needed to scroll down!

Doh

Some days I do things my dad would do... and he was just being old.

OMG

I'm old!

[AON]

Slipped out at lunch and bought 1 yard of 40 lb test monofilament fishing line at 0.024" dia x 64 = 1.536" dia

 

I will do some glue testing over the next few days

 

It was indeed 3 cents a yard so 109 yards would be $3.27

 

I'll have to start making some local calls for a supply of Black as this stuff is Green ... mind you it does seem black when viewing the cut end... hmmm

[Don9of11]

Alan, may I ask how you  determine/set the thickness of the frame as I marked on your sketch? Is it an arbitrary distances or is this something that is called out in the contract?

 

[AON]

Good evening Don,

 

The information is in the contract on the 4th and 5th sheets.

 

Floor timbers 26 ft in length at midships; molded at the heads 13-1/2"

Lower Futtock molded at the heads 12-3/4"

Second Futtock molded at the heads 12-1/4"

Third Futtock molded at the heads 11-5/6" and in and out at the Gun Deck 11-1/2"

Fourth Futtock molded, or in and out at the range of the Upper Deck Water Ways 10-1/2"

Top Timbers molded at the top in midships 5-1/2", abaft 5-5/8", at the Beakhead 6-1/4", at the Fiferail from the Second Drift to the Stern Timber 4-1/2", from the Drift Forward in the Wake of the Timber Heads 5-1/2"

 

I just use a polyline to blend between the points.

 

Alan

[AON]

Druxey,

 

Same sheets mentioned for Don above...

1) ... no chocks to be any larger on any Floor Timber than will admit...

2) Lower Futtocks ... to have chocks across the heels of them... and that they scarph on the Second Futtock...

3) Second Futtocks... Scarph... to the Third Futtocks

4) Third Futtocks ... give scarph to the Fourth Futtocks

 

Seemed to differentiate clearly where there were chocks and where there were scarphs so that is what I think I did if I read it correctly.

 

If I'm wrong please let me know.

If I'm right please don't stop asking!

Alan

[AON]

One more small item to share... the HMS Bellerophon Ship's Crest (from the last ship of that name and as assigned to the Sea Cadet Corps before they decided to add the three maple leafs to the bottom to differentiate the cadet corp from the real thing in the early 80's).  I do not believe the earlier ship's had crests as they had figure heads (?)

 

I'm cleaning out my hard drive and back up and found a really nice clear image.

Edited February 5, 2015 by AON

[AON]

So the new question since yesterday (via PM) has been whether to continue on as I have been with the upper scarph joints in the futtocks or use chocks throughout with the frames being "scarphed" to receive the chocks?  (Notice the twist in the usage of the term scarph joint)

 

The decision process… gathering of facts.

 

1.    The contract reads as I had posted earlier.

2.    My NRG mentor suggests they would likely have followed the contract… but had two weeks earlier recommended a book of ship construction that will explain the wood shortage and effect on ship building.  I have ordered it but it is at the very least a six week delivery and unfortunately it will not arrive for at least another four more weeks.

3.    Another very respectable and experienced modeler has mentioned via PM that there was a shortage of compass timber at the time and so scarph joint construction in the upper frames were being replaced with chocks so the timbers would be slightly shorter in overall length.

4.    Construction of the English Man of War 1650-1850 by Peter Goodwin states on page 16, 17, 18 that chocks were used (c. 1710-1811) up to but not including the fourth futtock to top timber joint due to the wood supply problem.

5.    The Bellona, the forerunner of the Arrogant Class ship seems to have been built with chocks per “Bellona - Conway - Anatomy of the Ship - The 74-gun Ship” (although depicted incorrectly)

6.    If the Bellona was ordered on 28 DEC 1757 and was possibly/likely chocked and the first of the arrogant class ships, HMS Arrogant, was ordered on 13 DEC 1758, it would stand to reason that they would be of a similar construction.  Therefore HMS Bellerophon (ordered 11 JAN 1782) a full 25 years later (during even more of a  wood supply problem)  would not likely be built in an older style.

 

At this very early time in my build I intend to leave one half uncovered (deck and hull) with a portion of frames removed to expose the interior and lower decks.  So all the frames on one half of the build will be exposed to some extent for viewing of chocks or alternatively scarph toes from above.

 

The decision seems obvious when viewing the facts.  I need to revise/redraw my station joints made to date to be chocks below the top timber / fourth futtock joint which will be a scarph joint.

 

Luckily I love to draw and in this day and age (and particular endeavor) it does not include erasing.

Edited February 8, 2015 by AON

[AON]

Did my glue test with the 40 lb test fishing monofilament line (0.0235" diameter) to be used as faux 1-1/2" diameter bolts in my assembly

 

I took a scrap piece of hemlock and drilled 4 holes using a #70 drill (0.0280" diameter)

 

I cut off 4 pieces of line and scuffed up the length of two of them, leaving the other two naturally smooth

 

#1 was the un-scuffed line coated with wood glue, inserted in the hole and worked up and down a few times (as EdT discribed in his build log of Young American)

#2 was wood glue on a scuffed line

#3 was 10 second Gorilla Super Glue on a scuffed line

#4 was the Gorilla glue on a smooth line

I let them set for 5 hours

 

I then tried to pull them out with a pair of pliers.... they all held there place.

I clipped off the lines close to the surface of the wood and sanded both sides of the wood.

Only #1 could be pushed out meaning the glue did not penetrate any appreciable distance along the length of the hole so sanding removed the glue.

I am not a fan of the Gorilla Glue and am happy the wood glue work well on the scuffed surface of line.

 

I also noted the end of the line in the sanded version didn't look all that bad.

I will continue to call around to see if I can get this line locally in BLACK as opposed to the translucent GREEN before I resort to E-Bay.

Edited February 8, 2015 by AON

[AON]

I also worked on the remaining pieces of the Stem Post assembly.

 

Glued up, cut out and sanded.

Then dry fitted them all together.

 

 

Then I glued up the Keel and False Keel templates to wood read to cut.

 

I had thought I'd need an oscillating drum sander to make sure I managed square curved surface sanding but I noticed one member posted his using his drill press... so I did a similar rig on mine

 

 

[druxey]

You might try that big, ugly Pro Bass shop in the new mega-shopping centre at Glendale and the QEW.