Greek Bireme by bensid54 - FINISHED - RADIO

[bensid54]

I really don't know what scale it is Ben I took some plans and photocopied them up until I had a size I thought I could work with, it is 42 inches long so I'll have to figure out the scale from there when compared to the original ship.

[BenF89]

Roger that; based on some quick wikipedia research, biremes were roughly 80 ft long. So, that would be roughly 1/2" = 1ft, giving a freeboard of about 1 1/2 ft full size. Based on a little more research, that seems roughly appropriate for the height from waterline to the opening for the first level of oars.

 

From this website: http://www.brighthubengineering.com/marine-history/72868-types-of-ancient-war-ships-biremes-and-triremes/

 

"Speed and mobility were the forte for triremes and for this reason they were built low to the ground, to ensure that the oarsmen reached the water easily with their oars. The lowest row of oarsmen was just 18 inches above the water line. As a result, many researchers believed that the triremes were not meant for open seas mainly because of their reduced weight. In case they were used for open seas, the rowing port holes were protected with leather bags to prevent sea water from coming inside the ship, especially during rough seas."

 

So, it's appropriate for the vessel type. And, I learned something new! 

 

Naval Architect standing down now   Can't wait to see her launched!

Edited May 6, 2015 by BenF89

[bensid54]

So based on what you have researched Ben that tells me the scale is 1/24 which is the scale of model cars. 80 feet is a lot of boat for 44 guys to be rowing I gather they were meant for short sprints via oars, glad this ship is closer to a replica of the real thing than could have hoped for thanks for the info Ben. 

[Louie da fly]

Galleys were built incredibly light - the Byzantine ones they've found in Istanbul's Yenikapi district have frames 50-60mm (2 to 2.4 inches) square in section, and the planks were 20-30mm (3/4 to 1.18 inches) thick. The oarports are that close to the water, and they've found nail holes which seem to confirm the existence of leather "bags" around the oarports, something mentioned in Ancient Greek texts.

 

Olympias, a reconstruction of an Athenian trireme is 121 feet long, with a crew of 170. There's a video of her sea trials at  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcsrNrRkQis which is very enlightening. The practical trials turned up a lot of worthwhile data - the Olympias didn't reach speeds as fast as recorded in antiquity, and it is thought that the speed would have been higher if the distance between oar-benches had been slightly greater to allow the oarsmen freer action. It's also believed there would have been less interference between oars (and fewer broken oars) if the arrangement of the oars had been somewht different. Olympias was very sensitive to changes in trim - even the movement of one person on the top deck.

 

 

All galleys were very sensitive to weather conditions and generally completely unsuitable in seas above 3 feet high. There are many recorded instances of entire fleets of galleys being lost in storms, and the Mediterranean campaigning season was only during the calmer months of the year, and even then an unexpected storm could be catastrophic. Nonetheless. the galley was the front line warship of the Mediterranean for over 1000 years.

 

Steven

[BenF89]

Awesome treatment, Steven! Man, I love this community of people - can't read a thing on this site and not learn something new.

[BenF89]

Have you seen this video? It looks like fun! 

Edited May 8, 2015 by BenF89

[bensid54]

Very interesting info Steven thanks so much for that information, based on the scale of my ship I wonder what realistic looking material I can to make the leather oar pouches with? The good thing about using leather pouches is it will help the looks of the vessel by hiding the thoe pins and also give a dampening effect to any oar bounce. Steven can you tell me what the smallest oar powered warship was? Maybe another project down the road!

[bensid54]

That's really cool Ben! I would like to see his oar mechanism setup.

[bensid54]

Had to file down all the oars at the eyes end otherwise the oars will not dip far enough into the water. The other picture is the assembly of the Starboard side oar rack, this one I split in one place and broke in half at another due to the fact I didn't run the drill through each hole twice. When I was running the tap through the rack I thought it seemed tight and found out that was a fact when during one of the taps the rack split in half so I had to glue it all back together, that's the good thing about plastic you can fuse it back together easily. The next rowing ship I make the mechanics will be mainly aluminum and should be quicker to build.

[bensid54]

Sorry I screwed up by not putting this picture in the last post.

[Louie da fly]

Very interesting info Steven thanks so much for that information, based on the scale of my ship I wonder what realistic looking material I can to make the leather oar pouches with? The good thing about using leather pouches is it will help the looks of the vessel by hiding the thoe pins and also give a dampening effect to any oar bounce. Steven can you tell me what the smallest oar powered warship was? Maybe another project down the road!

But your galley is already a warship – that’s why it’s got a ram! I’m not sure the smallest war galley that existed in Ancient Greece, but the most common before the introduction of the trireme was the pentekontor (or penteconter) – the 50-oared galley. The 50 oars was I think a pretty loose description, and I think yours would count as a pentekontor despite only having 44 oars.

 

The best and most comprehensive book I know on galleys is The Age of the Galley, http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=the%20age%20of%20the%20galley and I’d highly recommend you get hold of it if you can – perhaps your local library can obtain it. It gives a good overview (and a lot of theoretical detail as well) on Mediterranean galleys of the ancient, mediaeval and renaissance eras.

 

The video of the model galley ramming the merchant ship is pretty cool, but it looks like the oarsmen must have taken performance enhancing drugs to get that rowing rate. Perhaps the owner needs to gear the thing down a bit.

 

I don't really know what would be the best material to represent leather for the oarports - perhaps fine fabric with varnish or some other sort of goop through it? Or thin vinyl? I don't think real leather comes thin enough to do the job. On Olympias the sleeves were made of four pieces of leather, each in the shape of a tapered rectangle (if that makes sense - I suppose I could call it a trapezium), and sewn together at the edges. 

 

An interesting thing about ancient vessels, galleys included (at least if I read The Age of the Galley right), is that they were built without frames – the planks were fastened edge to edge with hundreds of coaks – small tenons fitting into slots cut into the edges of adjoining strakes, in the same manner as “biscuit” joints in modern woodworking. The skill and precision needed to do this completely blows my mind.

Even when frames were introduced in the early Middle Ages, they were added after the shell was built, and coaks survived till at least the 11^th century AD, though in much reduced numbers. It was this frameless construction that made ancient galleys vulnerable to ramming – the coaks just broke or came undone, letting the water in. Vessels with frames were too strong for ramming to be effective, and rams disappeared from the scene.

Fascinating stuff . . .

 

Steven

Edited May 10, 2015 by Louie da fly

[bensid54]

Great information Steven and very helpful I will do my best to make the oar pouches look like the real thing. When I asked if there was smaller warships maybe I should have said rowing ships with less oars! I have tossed around the idea of making a Viking ship for a number of years and after what you and others have told me and what I'm learning about this ships construction then I think the Viking ship would be my next rowing vessel.

[bensid54]

I have installed my drip blocks on all 44 oars now I'm hoping by breaking the smooth oar surface these blocks will force the water to drip off at this point, sort like speed bumps for water. I will once again need to clear coat the oars and now I need to find a clear coat spray to do the hull too, any suggestions?

[Louie da fly]

Well, Viking ships came in all kinds of sizes - from the Wikipedia entry:

 

"Longships can be classified into a number of different types depending on size, construction details and prestige. The most common way to classify longships is by the number of rowing positions on board. Types ranged from the Karvi, with 13 rowing benches, to the Busse, one of which has been found with an estimated 34 rowing positions."

 

So perhaps you'd be interested in making a Karvi.

 

The only problem that might arise is that Viking longships were basically just really big open boats so there'd be a difficulty hiding the radio control mechanism, if that's the way you're planning to go.

 

Otherwise - go for it!

 

I may be able to help; having spent many years as a Viking Age re-enactor, I've done a lot of reading on Viking ships and might be able to answer questions as they come up.

 

The model is looking really good. I'm very impressed, and look forward to seeing her in action in the water.

 

Steven

[bensid54]

Thanks Steven, didn't the Viking ships have a plank deck that was removable? I believe the long ships did and if that's the case it's a perfect place to hide RC equipment. I plan on having pins come up the middle of the Viking rower to operate the oars and to make the oars retract using compressed air on a bellows type system that will slide the oars through the rowers hands into the ship and use sail power. Once I'm done building this one I'll ponder how I can do a Viking ship and based on what I'm thinking I may have to make my work area larger. Your knowledge and experience regarding Vikings could be very handy thank you.

[bensid54]

Sizing up the oars and balancing dip depth I hope to have a video in the next few days of both oars in operation.

[Louie da fly]

I don't know how much of the ship was below the floor planking, but there are cross sections at http://nautarch.tamu.edu/class/316/oseberg/  and  at http://www.gutenberg.org/files/33098/33098-h/33098-h.htm#f22 which might let you know if it's enough to fit your radio control equipment below it.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Steven

[bensid54]

Thanks Steven I guess I would have to do what I did with the Bireme and that was make the boat I'm building fit the RC equipment. I'll check out the website and get an idea how big I will have to make it. I looked at the sites you posted and it looks like the hull underneath the planks will have to be my own design but the exterior could be made to look like the real thing, should be fun.

[bensid54]

While I was waiting for the epoxy to dry I started to make the mast/deck retainer, I took a 3/4 inch dowel cut it to about three inches long, drilled it out to almost 3/8 then used a boring bit on the lathe to make a good fit for the mast. I drilled the other end and installed a cut off wood screw leaving it about 5/8 of an inch proud and also tapered the piece but I want to taper it better which I will do later. How it will work is the mast will be secured to the deck by the ropes going to the mast and the base will be inserted one inch into the piece I just made, where it will be able to rotate which will in turn allow the threaded piece to be turned into the 1 inch dowel below deck thereby fastening the deck to the hull which is lined up using the dowels I installed at the bow end of the deck. I hope I explained that OK if not pictures always tell a better story.

[Omega1234]

Hi Ben

 

Yep. Got it! Picture paints a thousand words, as they say.

 

Looks good!

 

Cheers

 

Patrick

[bensid54]

I have another video on you tube this one has all the oars working but as you can see I have a learning curve in front of me. Patrick can you do me a favour and put the video on for me? Thanks

[Omega1234]

Hi Ben

 

Bravo and well done! Here ya go!!

 

 

Cheers

 

Patrick

Edited May 15, 2015 by Omega1234

[bensid54]

Thanks Patrick I really appreciate all your help!

[Omega1234]

Hi Ben

 

No probs, whatsoever! It's amazing (if not a little spooky), to see the oars in action, particularly with respect to the degree of functionality that you've built into the motion.

 

Have you been tempted to do a bath tub test yet?

 

Cheers

 

Patrick

[bensid54]

I think it's a little wide for the tub but we do have a pool at the complex I will do the sea trials there. I never thought of it being a little spooky I guess because the movement doesn't look all that mechanical it sort of makes it surreal.

[Louie da fly]

Thanks Steven I guess I would have to do what I did with the Bireme and that was make the boat I'm building fit the RC equipment. I'll check out the website and get an idea how big I will have to make it. I looked at the sites you posted and it looks like the hull underneath the planks will have to be my own design but the exterior could be made to look like the real thing, should be fun.

 That sounds like the best way to go, Ben. I was wondering if that'd be an option. I wish you the greatest success with it.

 

By the way, there are other intersting "oar-powered" vessels out there which would lend themselves to RC. The most interesting in my book is the steamboat built by the American John Fitch in the 18th century - see http://www.nysl.nysed.gov/mssc/steamboats/player_fitch2.htm . The clearest representation I've seen of the boat is below.  Thought you might be interested.

 

Steven

[bensid54]

Very interesting Steven, was one ever built?

[Bedford]

Hmmmmmm I can see an interesting parallel motion mechanism there!

[Louie da fly]

Yes indeed, Ben. In fact Fitch ran the first steam powered passenger service up and down the Hudson River for a considerable time and had a long-running battle with Fulton (of Clermont fame) as to who had the right to do so, and who had stolen the idea of the steamboat from whom. He used lever-driven paddles because Benjamin Franklin had told him paddle-wheels were never going to work.

 

Fulton won in the end, but I have a lot of sympathy for Fitch - an original mind, but with the odds stacked against him because of his origins and lack of education. I found about him from a book called Steam by Andrea Sutcliffe, which my son gave me for a birthday present. It's fascinating, and I'm very grateful to him for it.

[Louie da fly]

I just came across a very interesting video on Youtube of a reconstruction of Jason's Argo under construction and then in action. Shows the "shell-only" (i.e. frameless) construction of the ship, using coaks between the planks - see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s_0bwC7Hi8

 

 

 

Steven

Edited May 17, 2015 by Louie da fly