CharlieZardoz

Thanks for the advice Dan. Was wondering if the coamings should be rounded a bit, I knew that if I did so there would be no going back so I've been holding back on it but now that the deck is being done Ill adjust.

Thank you John! So yeah I am never one to leave well enough alone when something doesn't feel right. So atm Ive started working on some minor corrections to parts I though hmm could I do better? First and foremost are the gratings, the holes were simply too big. I realized the grating set is likely for a 1/48 model so I scaled it down and scratch made my own using the laser .75% to 1/64 scale. The new grating goes much better with the plans Ive seen and aside from some minor corrections of the hatch coaming, it fit in perfect. Now just have to make the smaller hatch but what do you think?

Yeah you know what, that's a very obvious weirdness. I mean a plan of that time would always have the keel horizontal having the plan to the waterline is.... wrong. One day ill try and track down where these plans came from and IF they have any merit at all.  I will want to see that plan Chapelle worked on at the mystic seaport library. He apparently did an unofficial conjectural plan (mentioned a few pages back). Id be curious to see what this plan looks like if for only research purposes.

Yep yep I would highly recommend your ready the NRG article if you can. That image I posted is from the issue, it's a British brig from 1804 which I believe was a template for HMS Wolf likely others, but the bows are almost identical. The Davis stern looks kinda Americanized but even that stern looks like neither era it's very extreme. There are many erroneous models from those era and plenty still on the shelves! If you want to build a kit try a newer kit they have less auspicious origins...  otherwise scratch modelmaking will always lead to the result you wish like my Active!

Nice! Curious to see what you have in store. Also just to go back to past posts about the Enteprrize quarterdeck, that Constructo model shows a style from 1776 with the railing and cabin door which looks a lot like Fair American or Halifax. When the little deck was on Enterprise it was very likely similar to the sort of fore and aft decks that the cruiser class had.  Again another example on how older models really had a lot of anachronistic issues. 

Here it be! And yeah it looks that crummy in the book as well lol.

Let me scan it from the book and see if I can get a decent size of it.

Hi Ian, I haven't had a chance to scan from Davis's book to try and explain what you are proposing, however you want to read NRG journal 31 page 137 which critiques the Lexington he built which was also used as the basis for the Aeropiccola kit of Lexington from way back when. So bottom line looking at the hull lines both ships do look rather similar don't they? But from what I can tell Davis took a plan profile of a Brtitish brig from 1804/5 probably the HMS Wolf and then augmented the size to like 78.5' long?  Which actually wasn't event the length of Lexington but whatever, I believe you are trying to insinuate that Davis's Lexington could be made to represent and somewhat factual representation of Enterprize? Here's my thoughts, I feel it wont because Davis's model is old and Davis in general was kind of not always the best with facts and back in those days there weren't many people doing this to make a generic early 19th century brig and then slap a name on it wasn't so hard back then there was less information. Millar's book, on Revolutionary war ships by contrast was great in that it really showed what colonial ships had in common back then, the Lexington having a quarterdeck and looking very much like a merchant conversion ship. The Enterprize by contrasted looked very much like a brig from 1800 which in turn consisted of ships like HMS Wolf, Cruizer and then the American Syren, Argus, Vixen etc. When I lined up the plans yeah there were differences but generally the same concept based on builder practices of the time. And in turn if you line up British brigs and then American ones youll see some distinctions between the two again based on builder practices.
 
My point is What Davis did was take a plan of a generic British brig, change the dimensions and then add some American styled flourishes and decided yeah that could be Lexington... but that's not very good history. He didn't really understand what a brig from 1776 would look like so the ship ultimately looks like a british brig from 1804 with some American touches, and shrunk down several feet hence why it looks like a plausible Enterprize. He also didn't scale the masts correctly they are oversized. Near as I can tell the Salvini plans were not discovered when Davis made his model so any chances of their being identical is pure coincidence.
 
So what did Enterprize really look like? Well if you take Salvini plan A and Vixen and line them up they are almost identical, save for some slight differences in tumblhome (which was historically referenced) but that's pretty much it! I am now of the opinion that Enterprize was never lengthened in Venice so she probably kept her 85' size up until the war of 1812 when she was significantly changed. So when I do make a model of Enterprise ill probably use Salvini plan A, line it up with Vixen, do a bit of tweaking and that's it. I would effectually be making a model of Salvini plan A and slapping Enterprize on it like I am the Active revenue cutter. It's making an inference but at least it's building a model from an actual legitimate plan, not a hodge podge of stuff like David's Lexington or Hahn's vaulted Hannah model (which has tons of issues as well). I will say though that the Davis Lexington is pleasing to the eye so I did try to decide if it could represent a ship of any sort but yeah 75' is too small for brigs of that time so I really don't know what else to do with it other that admire it as a noble attempt at -er something lol. :0

Those are great Talos! Look at those lines wheewhoo! Do you posts these in a different forum I'd love to follow your progress. Consequently I have an image of the South's attempt to convert the Raritan as well. I guess they really didn't have the resources to convert these ships to ironclads, but poor Germantown and United States were taken into the navy as floating batteries and then scuttled. Neat stuff!

Those are great Talos! Look at those lines wheewhoo! Do you posts these in a different forum I'd love to follow your progress. Consequently I have an image of the South's attempt to convert the Raritan as well. I guess they really didn't have the resources to convert these ships to ironclads, but poor Germantown and United States were taken into the navy as floating batteries and then scuttled. Neat stuff!

Thanks, Charlie. Some of these get posted on my naval thread on Baen's Bar, others get posted in the naval subforum on Civil War Talk (where frolick also posts) like the Plymouth ironclad. This is the first place I've posted the Burrows pics, however. The major reason Plymouth never ended up converted is they ran out of time and she was too deep to make it up the James River when the North recaptured Gosport.
 
https://civilwartalk.com/threads/uss-plymouth.144001/
 
 

The stern looks like the Syren's in the Tripoli painting,  Eagle and false windows.  My Syren about 35 years ago,  some day have to go back and rig her--

Thanks for the advice Dan. Was wondering if the coamings should be rounded a bit, I knew that if I did so there would be no going back so I've been holding back on it but now that the deck is being done Ill adjust.

Thank you John! So yeah I am never one to leave well enough alone when something doesn't feel right. So atm Ive started working on some minor corrections to parts I though hmm could I do better? First and foremost are the gratings, the holes were simply too big. I realized the grating set is likely for a 1/48 model so I scaled it down and scratch made my own using the laser .75% to 1/64 scale. The new grating goes much better with the plans Ive seen and aside from some minor corrections of the hatch coaming, it fit in perfect. Now just have to make the smaller hatch but what do you think?

Thank you John! So yeah I am never one to leave well enough alone when something doesn't feel right. So atm Ive started working on some minor corrections to parts I though hmm could I do better? First and foremost are the gratings, the holes were simply too big. I realized the grating set is likely for a 1/48 model so I scaled it down and scratch made my own using the laser .75% to 1/64 scale. The new grating goes much better with the plans Ive seen and aside from some minor corrections of the hatch coaming, it fit in perfect. Now just have to make the smaller hatch but what do you think?

I have not posted in this thread in a while, I started my master's degree program in the spring, and it has been eating up a lot of my free time.
 
I have mentioned the brig Burrows several times before, and it still stands out to me. A beautiful, never-built brig of larger than average size and armed with around 14 guns, either 32-pounder carronades or 27 hundredweight 32-pounder cannons. It was designed by Richard Powell, assistant to John Lenthall. I was struck by the resemblance to Lenthall’s ship-sloop Germantown, so I stuck the two together, and it is very apparent. Above the waterline, the two ships are very similar. Similar bows, stern is the same shape, fore- and mainmasts are in almost the same locations, even the boarding ladder. I know US brigs normally didn’t have quarter galleries, but this one was huge, just slightly smaller than the Boston-class ship-sloops. I copied Germantown’s onto Burrows, and they fit perfectly like they meant to be there. All I had to do to tweak it was shorten the top part of the quarter gallery a bit to fit Burrows’ smaller hammock rails. I also included a drawing with her rig. I have a comparison of lines too, but I need to go back and work on it more so I will post it another time.
 
Burrows
LBP: 126'0"
Beam (Molded): 30'0"
Depth in Hold: 14'0"
 
Germantown
LBP: 150'0"
Beam (Molded): 36'0"
Depth in Hold: 16'8"
 


 
 
This is another drawing I did for a prompt over on Civil War Talk. The sloop Plymouth was captured at Gosport Naval Yard by advancing Confederate forces (along with Germantown). There was a proposal to convert her into an ironclad, which fell through. I combined a proposed Confederate ironclad casemate design with Plymouth’s hull. I also included the armament, two 7-inch Brooke Rifles, two 6.4-inch Brooke Rifles, four IX-inch Dahlgren smoothbores, and a pair of boat howitzers.


 
I did up several gun drawings as well, including the top view of Plymouth’s 7-inch rifles on pivot carriages, a new Marsilly carriage for the old IX-inch Dahlgren I drew. I also drew a British 64-pounder MLR of 64cwt and a British truck carriage for it.
 


I did a drawing of Plymouth’s gundeck based on a combination of a plan In Canney’s Sailing Warships book, and a Library of Congress plan of Plymouth’s great cabin. I plan to use this on another forum to illustrate some armament and layout concepts, but right now it is armed with a mix of 32-pounders and 8” shell guns. I’m also including a larger copy of the two guns and their truck carriages.

Hi Charlie - 
 
Looking better and better.  I like the new gratings and coamings.  You might just round the corners a bit.  Sharp corners and edges on a ship tossing in rough seas would be an invitation to serious injuries.
 
Excellent progress overall.
 
Dan

Thank you John! So yeah I am never one to leave well enough alone when something doesn't feel right. So atm Ive started working on some minor corrections to parts I though hmm could I do better? First and foremost are the gratings, the holes were simply too big. I realized the grating set is likely for a 1/48 model so I scaled it down and scratch made my own using the laser .75% to 1/64 scale. The new grating goes much better with the plans Ive seen and aside from some minor corrections of the hatch coaming, it fit in perfect. Now just have to make the smaller hatch but what do you think?

Happy autumn to you All! 😄 Been quite busy with the model so figured I'd offer a new update. First, the hull planking is all finished and treenailed.  The first side took me months while the second side took me only a few weeks! While both sides look relatively identical I did make sure they had some suttle differences and secretly I do prefer one to the other.
 
My plan is to finish all of the underside stuff so that I no longer need to flip the boat and potentially damage any deck fittings. So with that as my approach, next up is the wale which is getting metal nails giving that metallic look. And last is building the transom and counter. I must have tried this 20+ times before I got one I liked. For now it's unfinished and will be attached later with extra detailing but overall I'm quite happy with it. I was at a loss trying to understand the plans and what the stern actually looked like. Any models out there of the Doughty cutters are all simply horribly wrong. They all show a flat stern piece tacked on with no counter at all which would in real life fall off once it hit a harsh wave...  Look at the images of the 3 Doughty cutter stern transoms all lined up you can see how they are distinct.
 
Since I'm trying to keep to the historical plans as best I can this was my best interpretation and looks pretty much like a Baltimore clipper stern. The moulding around the stern attach to the wale and I will add some connecting decoration later. It looks simple but really there were so many subtle challenges like cutting the counter to match the curve of the stern (all the parts are curved and bent in certain ways). The stern piece is raised almost above the deck!  I spent probably a good week just plotting it out in my mind lol. 
 
For my inspiration I used a few models I found online. One is of the Achilles and the other of a scratch model of the 51 ton cutter Alabama. You can see how they managed to build their stern with the proper incline and transom/counter so it helped me alot. Next up the decking finally! 😎






 


 

Good morning! Decided to do a mini-update today I added all the treenails to the finished side of the hull. Basically I the process was poking them out with an awl then filling the hole with colored putty (which I darkened with paint) then used the colored pencil to define the area a bit more and here is how it looks!  I know some of my steelers are a bit off location but that will be colored with copper anyways. I realize now that the nails are effectively showing where the ships frames are (an obvious concept but I now I see the logic behind it). Next step now will be doing the other side hopefully won't take me nearly as long

Hi all! Sorry its been so long been toiling away on planking and just finished the left side. Since the shape is so wedge shaped on this boat alot of planks needed to be spiled. That said it taught me alot and I think I did a reasonably good job for a first timer. Now starting the treenails using an awl, colored putty to fill the holes then a color pencil to add some detailing. Got more to go but thought I'd share

Hi all! I totally forgot I put this one together and thought I'd share. It's a Talos style size comparison chart of various small ships schooners etc. I was going to wait and add the HMS Swift as well but figured ah let me put it up now and see what you all think (Swift would be just a bit larger than Berbice). Look at how small the 31 Doughty cutter actually is!

Happy autumn to you All! 😄 Been quite busy with the model so figured I'd offer a new update. First, the hull planking is all finished and treenailed.  The first side took me months while the second side took me only a few weeks! While both sides look relatively identical I did make sure they had some suttle differences and secretly I do prefer one to the other.
 
My plan is to finish all of the underside stuff so that I no longer need to flip the boat and potentially damage any deck fittings. So with that as my approach, next up is the wale which is getting metal nails giving that metallic look. And last is building the transom and counter. I must have tried this 20+ times before I got one I liked. For now it's unfinished and will be attached later with extra detailing but overall I'm quite happy with it. I was at a loss trying to understand the plans and what the stern actually looked like. Any models out there of the Doughty cutters are all simply horribly wrong. They all show a flat stern piece tacked on with no counter at all which would in real life fall off once it hit a harsh wave...  Look at the images of the 3 Doughty cutter stern transoms all lined up you can see how they are distinct.
 
Since I'm trying to keep to the historical plans as best I can this was my best interpretation and looks pretty much like a Baltimore clipper stern. The moulding around the stern attach to the wale and I will add some connecting decoration later. It looks simple but really there were so many subtle challenges like cutting the counter to match the curve of the stern (all the parts are curved and bent in certain ways). The stern piece is raised almost above the deck!  I spent probably a good week just plotting it out in my mind lol. 
 
For my inspiration I used a few models I found online. One is of the Achilles and the other of a scratch model of the 51 ton cutter Alabama. You can see how they managed to build their stern with the proper incline and transom/counter so it helped me alot. Next up the decking finally! 😎






 


 

Good morning! Decided to do a mini-update today I added all the treenails to the finished side of the hull. Basically I the process was poking them out with an awl then filling the hole with colored putty (which I darkened with paint) then used the colored pencil to define the area a bit more and here is how it looks!  I know some of my steelers are a bit off location but that will be colored with copper anyways. I realize now that the nails are effectively showing where the ships frames are (an obvious concept but I now I see the logic behind it). Next step now will be doing the other side hopefully won't take me nearly as long

Thank you John! So yeah I am never one to leave well enough alone when something doesn't feel right. So atm Ive started working on some minor corrections to parts I though hmm could I do better? First and foremost are the gratings, the holes were simply too big. I realized the grating set is likely for a 1/48 model so I scaled it down and scratch made my own using the laser .75% to 1/64 scale. The new grating goes much better with the plans Ive seen and aside from some minor corrections of the hatch coaming, it fit in perfect. Now just have to make the smaller hatch but what do you think?