NMBROOK

Work is slowly progressing on the port side.As I have proved everything on the starboard side,this acts as a template for the port side.This has enabled me to fit the gunport frames earlier in the process to make it easier to shape the internal profile.The handy thing with the gunport design is that tweaks are easy.Some of the holes for the linings have been adjusted and boxwood veneer shims used to ensure perfect alignment when sighting down the side of the hull.I have also been able to fit the lower counter side timber earlier than before.The rather random looking pear blocks at the bow are for shaping to match the other side.The are placed to ensure adequate material to carve the shape out of.
 
Kind Regards
 
Nigel

Work is slowly progressing on the port side.As I have proved everything on the starboard side,this acts as a template for the port side.This has enabled me to fit the gunport frames earlier in the process to make it easier to shape the internal profile.The handy thing with the gunport design is that tweaks are easy.Some of the holes for the linings have been adjusted and boxwood veneer shims used to ensure perfect alignment when sighting down the side of the hull.I have also been able to fit the lower counter side timber earlier than before.The rather random looking pear blocks at the bow are for shaping to match the other side.The are placed to ensure adequate material to carve the shape out of.
 
Kind Regards
 
Nigel

Work is slowly progressing on the port side.As I have proved everything on the starboard side,this acts as a template for the port side.This has enabled me to fit the gunport frames earlier in the process to make it easier to shape the internal profile.The handy thing with the gunport design is that tweaks are easy.Some of the holes for the linings have been adjusted and boxwood veneer shims used to ensure perfect alignment when sighting down the side of the hull.I have also been able to fit the lower counter side timber earlier than before.The rather random looking pear blocks at the bow are for shaping to match the other side.The are placed to ensure adequate material to carve the shape out of.
 
Kind Regards
 
Nigel

That is some clever work mate to achieve the spliced look with purely paint!!!
 
Kind Regards
 
Nigel

Work is slowly progressing on the port side.As I have proved everything on the starboard side,this acts as a template for the port side.This has enabled me to fit the gunport frames earlier in the process to make it easier to shape the internal profile.The handy thing with the gunport design is that tweaks are easy.Some of the holes for the linings have been adjusted and boxwood veneer shims used to ensure perfect alignment when sighting down the side of the hull.I have also been able to fit the lower counter side timber earlier than before.The rather random looking pear blocks at the bow are for shaping to match the other side.The are placed to ensure adequate material to carve the shape out of.
 
Kind Regards
 
Nigel

Work is slowly progressing on the port side.As I have proved everything on the starboard side,this acts as a template for the port side.This has enabled me to fit the gunport frames earlier in the process to make it easier to shape the internal profile.The handy thing with the gunport design is that tweaks are easy.Some of the holes for the linings have been adjusted and boxwood veneer shims used to ensure perfect alignment when sighting down the side of the hull.I have also been able to fit the lower counter side timber earlier than before.The rather random looking pear blocks at the bow are for shaping to match the other side.The are placed to ensure adequate material to carve the shape out of.
 
Kind Regards
 
Nigel

Work is slowly progressing on the port side.As I have proved everything on the starboard side,this acts as a template for the port side.This has enabled me to fit the gunport frames earlier in the process to make it easier to shape the internal profile.The handy thing with the gunport design is that tweaks are easy.Some of the holes for the linings have been adjusted and boxwood veneer shims used to ensure perfect alignment when sighting down the side of the hull.I have also been able to fit the lower counter side timber earlier than before.The rather random looking pear blocks at the bow are for shaping to match the other side.The are placed to ensure adequate material to carve the shape out of.
 
Kind Regards
 
Nigel

Greetings Nigel,
 
I guess it would depend on how far structural analysis as a practical design tool had progressed during that time period. My sense is that it hadn't progressed enough to where the designers/builders were calculating the placement of columns, knees, etc. This leaves us with "rule of thumb" design. I have read, in one of Chappelle's books I think, that major aspects of ship design was based on proportion. Even spar diameter was related to length of the spar, which was related to overall mast height, which was related to ship LOA, and so on. So, if you knew the LOA of a particular class of ship, you were off to the races and could pretty much design the major dimensions for a new ship. Plus, let's not forget good old design by previous experience - also known as trial and error. A good example of this gone wrong is the Vasa sinking, which I am sure you know about.
 
As with building design, girders span between columns, and beams span between girders. I guess the ship equivalent would scantlings, pillars, and carlins. You could use a modern timber design manual to arrive at reasonable spans for a given timber cross section based on the wood you are using from the kit. This should range you in close enough for what you want to do. Grog time.
 
wq3296

Those last shots along the hull show the wonderful curvature you have achieved, great stuff Nigel
 
B.E.

Hi Nigel
 
She`s looking good.
 
mij

Work is slowly progressing on the port side.As I have proved everything on the starboard side,this acts as a template for the port side.This has enabled me to fit the gunport frames earlier in the process to make it easier to shape the internal profile.The handy thing with the gunport design is that tweaks are easy.Some of the holes for the linings have been adjusted and boxwood veneer shims used to ensure perfect alignment when sighting down the side of the hull.I have also been able to fit the lower counter side timber earlier than before.The rather random looking pear blocks at the bow are for shaping to match the other side.The are placed to ensure adequate material to carve the shape out of.
 
Kind Regards
 
Nigel

Work is slowly progressing on the port side.As I have proved everything on the starboard side,this acts as a template for the port side.This has enabled me to fit the gunport frames earlier in the process to make it easier to shape the internal profile.The handy thing with the gunport design is that tweaks are easy.Some of the holes for the linings have been adjusted and boxwood veneer shims used to ensure perfect alignment when sighting down the side of the hull.I have also been able to fit the lower counter side timber earlier than before.The rather random looking pear blocks at the bow are for shaping to match the other side.The are placed to ensure adequate material to carve the shape out of.
 
Kind Regards
 
Nigel

Work is slowly progressing on the port side.As I have proved everything on the starboard side,this acts as a template for the port side.This has enabled me to fit the gunport frames earlier in the process to make it easier to shape the internal profile.The handy thing with the gunport design is that tweaks are easy.Some of the holes for the linings have been adjusted and boxwood veneer shims used to ensure perfect alignment when sighting down the side of the hull.I have also been able to fit the lower counter side timber earlier than before.The rather random looking pear blocks at the bow are for shaping to match the other side.The are placed to ensure adequate material to carve the shape out of.
 
Kind Regards
 
Nigel

Work is slowly progressing on the port side.As I have proved everything on the starboard side,this acts as a template for the port side.This has enabled me to fit the gunport frames earlier in the process to make it easier to shape the internal profile.The handy thing with the gunport design is that tweaks are easy.Some of the holes for the linings have been adjusted and boxwood veneer shims used to ensure perfect alignment when sighting down the side of the hull.I have also been able to fit the lower counter side timber earlier than before.The rather random looking pear blocks at the bow are for shaping to match the other side.The are placed to ensure adequate material to carve the shape out of.
 
Kind Regards
 
Nigel

Work is slowly progressing on the port side.As I have proved everything on the starboard side,this acts as a template for the port side.This has enabled me to fit the gunport frames earlier in the process to make it easier to shape the internal profile.The handy thing with the gunport design is that tweaks are easy.Some of the holes for the linings have been adjusted and boxwood veneer shims used to ensure perfect alignment when sighting down the side of the hull.I have also been able to fit the lower counter side timber earlier than before.The rather random looking pear blocks at the bow are for shaping to match the other side.The are placed to ensure adequate material to carve the shape out of.
 
Kind Regards
 
Nigel

I have quite a few changes to the original model, including re-planking the sides, adding the anti ramming plates and ballistas. I ran out of dowel for the oars, only had enough to make a third of them!
 
 

 

 

Work is slowly progressing on the port side.As I have proved everything on the starboard side,this acts as a template for the port side.This has enabled me to fit the gunport frames earlier in the process to make it easier to shape the internal profile.The handy thing with the gunport design is that tweaks are easy.Some of the holes for the linings have been adjusted and boxwood veneer shims used to ensure perfect alignment when sighting down the side of the hull.I have also been able to fit the lower counter side timber earlier than before.The rather random looking pear blocks at the bow are for shaping to match the other side.The are placed to ensure adequate material to carve the shape out of.
 
Kind Regards
 
Nigel

Work is slowly progressing on the port side.As I have proved everything on the starboard side,this acts as a template for the port side.This has enabled me to fit the gunport frames earlier in the process to make it easier to shape the internal profile.The handy thing with the gunport design is that tweaks are easy.Some of the holes for the linings have been adjusted and boxwood veneer shims used to ensure perfect alignment when sighting down the side of the hull.I have also been able to fit the lower counter side timber earlier than before.The rather random looking pear blocks at the bow are for shaping to match the other side.The are placed to ensure adequate material to carve the shape out of.
 
Kind Regards
 
Nigel

Work is slowly progressing on the port side.As I have proved everything on the starboard side,this acts as a template for the port side.This has enabled me to fit the gunport frames earlier in the process to make it easier to shape the internal profile.The handy thing with the gunport design is that tweaks are easy.Some of the holes for the linings have been adjusted and boxwood veneer shims used to ensure perfect alignment when sighting down the side of the hull.I have also been able to fit the lower counter side timber earlier than before.The rather random looking pear blocks at the bow are for shaping to match the other side.The are placed to ensure adequate material to carve the shape out of.
 
Kind Regards
 
Nigel

Greetings Nigel, Et Al,
 
Good discussion all around. My thoughts:
 
Not disputing the information provided because it is reasonable. However, see latest issue of Ships in Scale for the article on L'Hermione, Photo 9, page 17. Photo shows new keel on its side, ready for placement. Note the horizontal scarph. Many other good photos in this article showing her in frame. She's French built.
 
Now that I've had a chance to think about it, vertical scarphs make perfect sense, particularly for scarphs that are unsupported by a column or other structure. A vertical scarph seems as though it would be better at resisting deflection. The location of the neutral axis would not change because the two full depth beams are apt to act together. With a horizontal scarph, each beam member would have its own neutral axis and may act independently, depending on how they were fastened. For supported scarph joints, it probably doesn't matter because the support would take the load.
 
In Longridge's book, he has a section on scarphs and reports that, on British ships, the keels had vertical scarphs but keelsons had horizontal scarph. Our discussion here is about deck beams, but I guess the type of scarph used by different builders for various applications was subjective.
 
Thank you all for a good discussion from which I benefited. What's next?
 
wq3296

Just a small but nevertheless important update.I am currently working on the other side but doing a little multitasking   In my last timber delivery,I had ordered some 6x4mm pear strip to see how successful it would be to bend the deck beams as apposed to cutting them.As a mentioned before these will penetrate the sides of the inner hull 'shell' and in effect be solidly anchored at the ends.I made a simple jig up to clamp the thoroughly soaked Pear strip in(tip here,soak until the pear no longer wants to float).I deliberately made the jig for double the camber to allow for some springback.Not only this but it is better to overbend and straighten rather than underbend.The radius was calculated using the formula shown in the pic.I thought i would include this as to my knowledge it hasn't been posted before.I clamped two strips in the jig at the same time on top of one another,Any more and it would start to make too big a difference to the radius.The question of whether these beams would be scarphed in the middle is in abeyance and I have posted another thread regarding this.Even if these will be scarphed,I thought it necessary to put the radius in before tapering as the bending properties would not be consistent with a tampered section. 
 
Kind Regards
 
Nigel

Thanks Terry. I'm afraid that the only thing I could teach is to grow older, have more time for modeling and substitute more patience and perseverance for diminishing physical capabilities.
 
Sam, it's good to hear from you. It's been a while and I was getting a little concerned about you.
 
I've now made and installed the chain pumps, their aft cranks and crank supports and the pump dales. The pumps were made using the kit laser cut pieces as forms for boxwood planking. The cranks are blackened brass wire and are simplified due to their small size. The forward cranks and supports will be added as I move forward on the gun deck. I am in the process of making the remaining quarterdeck framing and the main jeer bitts.
 
Bob

Recognizing that these are from a much later era than the original query, here are a couple of snippets from Fincham (1825) - An Introductory Outline of the Practice of Ship-building available via Google Books in PDF (I have not been able to locate an edition with the plates as yet but continue to seek same)
 
Concerning the Keel (Fincham, 1825 – page 9)
 
4. As the keel cannot be obtained in one piece, as to length, several pieces are bolted together lengthways, by what-is called a side or vertical coak scarph; the scarphs being in length about three times the depth of the keel. The coaks are for the support of the bolts, especially to resist the strain when the butts of the scarphs are being caulked; they are one-half the length of the scarph, and their breadth one-third its depth.
.
5. The scarphs are bolted with from six to eight bolts; eight, from frigates upwards, and six to smaller vessels: half of the bolts are driven from each lip side, with a ring upon the head, and clenched upon a ring on the opposite side.
 .
6. The French and most other nations have flat or horizontal scarphs; but as these scarphs tend to weaken the keel, in the direction in which it is most subject to strain, more than the side scarphs, the English mode is preferable; for the keel bends vertically, which brings a tension on the upper or lower fibres, according as hogging or sagging takes place, which fibres are cut off, in a greater number in these scarphs, to let in the lips; and when sagging takes place there is a tendency to open the joint at the lower lip; this opening will cause the scarphs to leak, except a  stopwater be placed at the intersection of the joint of the scarph with the outer edge of the garboard seam, or by increasing the length of the scarphs.
 
Concerning Deck beams (Fincham, 1825 page 70) –
 
169. The beams are distinguished into single pieces, two ( b ), three ( c ), and sometimes four piece beams (f and g): the length of the beams and the timbers that can be provided to make them will determine the number of pieces they are to be composed of, which should always be as few as possible; for the quantity of timber required to make them will be increased with the number of pieces, because the number of scarphs is increased.
 
170. When a beam is made or composed of more than one piece, the pieces are united together with vertical scarphs. If in two pieces ( b ), the scarph is 1/3, if in three pieces ( c )  1/4, and when in four pieces (f and g) 1/5 the length of the beam.
 
171. The scarphs are distinguished into right and left hand scarphs, and are named by the hand that is on the side of the angle, or the side from which the wood to form the scarph is taken off; when at the side end, the face is towards the scarph and looking upon the upper surface; they are bo1ted with from seven to nine bolts; so as to make their distances apart from 16 to 18 inches, placed alternately. about 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 inches from the upper  and lower part of the beams. An equal number of them is driven from each lip side and clenched upon the opposite; in addition to these bolts, one nail is driven into each lip on the opposite edge to the nearest bolt, and one bolt is frequently driven up and down in each lip to prevent its splitting.

Just a light update... been working on frames.  Have several cut and test fitted and all reference points marked.
 
The pics below show how I'm solving the issues that plagued me on Version 1.0.   
 
Since all measurements are referenced to the build board, I've added a tab to each frame to securely locate that point (green arrow). After I cut in that part of the frame, I fit it and re-measure, re-refrence the other points. 
 
One set of points is where the deck clamps need to be so the red arrows show those.  1/8" deck beam, a 1/8" clamp and 1/16" inch plank will put the deck height were it needs to be.  This particular frame is #1 and thus, there's three decks.. lower, gun, and forecastle.
 
The blue arrows reference the outside dimensions of the gun port cutout for the sill to sit properly.  I'm using a 1/8" sill and when they're fitted I'll finesse them to be exact.
 
The black arrows point to the line for the wales.  These are small cuts into the frame and filled with colored glue to hightlight  They only demarcate the transition line from wale to planking and vice versa.
 
The black arrow with the white fill is the cutline for when this beast is finally cut from the build board.  A top rail will sit on top of this line.
 
I'm going slow and careful to avoid dong wrong what I did the last time.
 

Totally in agreement Wayne,it is interesting though the French chose to do their scarphs differently,however they did employ far more sophisticated technologies to ensure lower hull stiffness.Gaeton's Fleuron is an ideal showcase for this.
 
Kind Regards
 
Nigel