mikeaidanh

I feel for you Chuck and Dave, as I've noticed the same thing, and I have to think that these people are being completely unreasonable and not really thinking through what they are asking for.
 
I'm going to use Cheerful as a 'talking point', since it's my most recent purchase, and it's a great example, as I've put together the components very much like what they are asking for, yet it's a much smaller kit than what they are asking for.
 
Starter kit w/laser cut keel, bulkheads and stern frames.
All the mini-kits available.
Full timbering kit including pre-milled planking for the hull.
Guns and carriages.
 
All of that adds up to about $565 if you pay normal price, and does not include shipping.  Not included - more wood stock for the masting, all the rigging rope, fittings, stuff like anchors that kits normally include, and we are easily into the $650~$750 range depending on what all you add, and this is a 1/48 scale single masted cutter.  People that expect to get a 1/48 scale frigate kit using that quality of materials for under $500 are never going to get what they want.  It's simple math really.  If you want a 1/48 scale HMS Surprise that uses Boxwood or Pear instead of Lime & Walnut, and replaces bad generic fittings with high quality fittings, it is going to be $1000+ even from a large company.
 
What is really surprising to me is that people don't seem to consider the value of the purchase over the time spent building it.  The AVS took me 13 months, and probably 1200 hours to build.  So what if I spent $600+ on materials to complete it, that's pretty cheap 'entertainment', especially if you spread the 1200 hours out over a longer period of time like most people do.
 
Most plastic modelers (or at least the ones in my IPMS group) spend $50 per month easily on kits, and that's just the ones they actually build, not the ones that just get added to the stash.  At $600 per year, if you build a really nice frigate in 2 years, that's $1200.  Yea, it's all at once, but over time, it's the same as buying a $50 plastic tank model every month.  
 
You get what you pay for, and if you want a high quality model, you buy a high quality kit, which isn't going to be as cheap as a low quality kit of the same subject.

As long as a topic about what we do as developers doesnt evolve into a sales pitch I am all for it should the membership be interested and have questions.   I would also welcome the "big boys" as you call them to participate although I think that isnt the true picture.  Many of these companies.......Admiralty Models, Caldercraft,  Bluejacket, Maristella, Dusek, Seawatch Books included,  are not the big boys.   They are still very small by most business standards and are Mom and Pop type operations with sales NOT in the millions annually.  Hardly considered big business like some older more established companies like Model Shipways, Amati, or Corel and others.  Although I may be mistaken.  The true definition...if you are in business with under 2 employees you are a micro business.....with up to 50 employees a small business etc.
 
But to preserve this topic as a way to allow our members to communicate their wish lists and preferences for subject,  price points and materials..... I still ask that no commercial folks post here.
 
Having said that, if our membership wants a topic where they can ask our sponsors some kit development questions or respond to other inquiries and see a slice of what the development process looks like and costs....let me know by replying here and I will start one.
 
I am just hesitant because I dont want it to be a big commercial or very sales oriented topic.   Or for one or more such companies to monopolize the conversation.  All of our operations are probably very different.  Same is true probably for our business philosophy. 
 
It may be better for each dealer to just set up their own topic here.....
 
There is really nothing preventing any vendor right now from starting a topic in the traders and dealers section right know detailing what it takes to start and finish a particular project.  Sort of what Maristella has started here (topic)    but he hasnt gone into costs and differnt things.  Its his choice.
 
I have already started one for Syren here....kind of...I would be more than happy to discuss any aspect of my development process and philosophy...as well as costs/challenges.  I think the topic already contains such questions from our members.  I am not adverse to talking about it in more detail either...just pose the question in my topic.
 
So I guess what I am saying Dave....is that it may be better to just create a stand-alone topic for the Lumberyard rather than have a mish-mash of commercial gobly-gook in one large topic.   Just my two cents.  So feel free to start your own.  
 
Currently I have found this topic fascinating....for my area of expertise..(not sail to steam, not POF)
 
Preference for complete kits of frigates and ships 1750-1840ish as described by many....POB ..1/48 scale or 1/64....with better materials.....huge detailed instructions with crisp Hi res photos in color....high end fittings and not the usual crap...better rope and blocks....all for what has been averaged out to around $200-$500.  Dont make a ship already available as a kit......plenty of particular ships mentioned  so thats not an issue.  That is a tall order.  There are a few willing to pay more but most are not....we are talking years to develop each project and thousands invested in that development.  I probably should have opened up a pizza parlor instead.
 
I would not have gained that info had this topic been over run by input from the developers.  The same is true if the topic was watered down by having a similar topic competing with it, because some developers are chomping at the bit to get into the conversation.  So yes, Dave, feel free to start a stand alone Lumberyard topic.  As the info I am getting must continue to be collected un- abridged.  It is just too valuable to muck-up.  For me anyway.  And feel free to also comment in my topic as I will feel free to comment in the Lumberyards.  I think it will give everyone a lot of insight into our individual operations.  And we developers will have a lot to gain from talking to each other in our various individual topics.  I am sure we can all help each other move the hobby forward by letting folks know about our challenges commercially.
 
Again,  I am sorry for going off track here a bit.

Having read through the preceding posts I offer the following;
 
Kits in parts from one or more supplier, ie Syren andCrown Timberyard.
Kits that introduce new techniques, preferably gently, and form a progression.
Projects based on vessels of any period that are significant for pushing the design envelope.
Less POB, more POF.
 
My choice of vessel? HMS Niger and her sister vessel HMS Basilisk, both built as sailing sloops, were used for the 1849 propulsion trials.
Basilisk drew the short straw and was equipped with paddles. They both served on after the trials but HMS Niger must have her place in history. Build them as a pair? Now there's a thought!
 
Mike.

Having read through the preceding posts I offer the following;
 
Kits in parts from one or more supplier, ie Syren andCrown Timberyard.
Kits that introduce new techniques, preferably gently, and form a progression.
Projects based on vessels of any period that are significant for pushing the design envelope.
Less POB, more POF.
 
My choice of vessel? HMS Niger and her sister vessel HMS Basilisk, both built as sailing sloops, were used for the 1849 propulsion trials.
Basilisk drew the short straw and was equipped with paddles. They both served on after the trials but HMS Niger must have her place in history. Build them as a pair? Now there's a thought!
 
Mike.

Having read through the preceding posts I offer the following;
 
Kits in parts from one or more supplier, ie Syren andCrown Timberyard.
Kits that introduce new techniques, preferably gently, and form a progression.
Projects based on vessels of any period that are significant for pushing the design envelope.
Less POB, more POF.
 
My choice of vessel? HMS Niger and her sister vessel HMS Basilisk, both built as sailing sloops, were used for the 1849 propulsion trials.
Basilisk drew the short straw and was equipped with paddles. They both served on after the trials but HMS Niger must have her place in history. Build them as a pair? Now there's a thought!
 
Mike.

Having read through the preceding posts I offer the following;
 
Kits in parts from one or more supplier, ie Syren andCrown Timberyard.
Kits that introduce new techniques, preferably gently, and form a progression.
Projects based on vessels of any period that are significant for pushing the design envelope.
Less POB, more POF.
 
My choice of vessel? HMS Niger and her sister vessel HMS Basilisk, both built as sailing sloops, were used for the 1849 propulsion trials.
Basilisk drew the short straw and was equipped with paddles. They both served on after the trials but HMS Niger must have her place in history. Build them as a pair? Now there's a thought!
 
Mike.

Having read through the preceding posts I offer the following;
 
Kits in parts from one or more supplier, ie Syren andCrown Timberyard.
Kits that introduce new techniques, preferably gently, and form a progression.
Projects based on vessels of any period that are significant for pushing the design envelope.
Less POB, more POF.
 
My choice of vessel? HMS Niger and her sister vessel HMS Basilisk, both built as sailing sloops, were used for the 1849 propulsion trials.
Basilisk drew the short straw and was equipped with paddles. They both served on after the trials but HMS Niger must have her place in history. Build them as a pair? Now there's a thought!
 
Mike.

The type of ship doesn't really matter. I prefer ships between 1750 and 1785. A ketch rigged sloop in a larger scale (1/48; 1/32), perhaps a bomb vessel, but historically accurate. There are more than enough fantasy and bad designed kits in the market
 
What I think is really necessary: a new or very old way of commercialisation of kits.
 
I think it is a good idea to offer a kit in different parts. Most of us like good quality wood (box, pear, ...) but this is very expensive and in my opinion not a good option for a kit as it will offered today. The kit will become expensive and less costumer will buy it.
 
So my idea is to offer the kit in three, perhaps five parts
 
-Part 1: bulkheads and drawings
-Part 2: wood for building the hull (perhaps in two different qualities: lower quality basswood; higher quality: pear)
-Part 3: fittings (Chucks way with laercut parts is a really good way)
-Part 4: Mast and spars (perhaps also i two qualities); blocks and so on
-Part 5: Rigging Material
 
The modeller can choose the qualities and don't need to buy every part in one time. The problem is, that the company needs a bigger store.

I would have to make one request.  Of course like everyone I'm biased by nationality and interest, but I think there are a couple of ships from the age of sail that are not represented in any kit form which seems a real hole in the market, I'm talking about HMS Trincomalee and the frigate Unicorn, both Leda class frigates and a very successful design - HMS Shannon of Chesapeake fame was also a Leda.  Given the ships are still in existance I suspect that these would have a lot of interest similar to the other ships (or even replicas) that seem to generate so much interest.  The class also crossed over the changes from the flat to rounded stern so could make for some very interesting modeling.
 
Another interesting ship is the RRS Discovery (famous for Scott's ill-fated voyage to the South Pole) berthed in Dundee (within sight of Unicorn in fact) which again I think generates interest for its historic value and the fact that she is also still in existence.
 
Preferred Scale - 1:64.  I'm not retired so have a bit more flexibility with finances but believe in getting value for money and not just the cost side - current Caldercraft/Amati price point seem reasonable, however I prefer to pay extra for option of better wood, I'm tired of dealing with the ubiquitous walnut....

When using "sharps" work away from areas that bleed. Use a bench stop in lieu of a hand. Work towards the stop.
Always engage brain before using "sharps"
Here endeth the lesson.

Chuck you have a way of making people think differently. I know I am going to struggle following your ideas ( I am already exercised by Cheerful! ) but they will be interesting and educational struggles.
 
Good on you!
 
Mike.

Chuck you have a way of making people think differently. I know I am going to struggle following your ideas ( I am already exercised by Cheerful! ) but they will be interesting and educational struggles.
 
Good on you!
 
Mike.

Chuck you have a way of making people think differently. I know I am going to struggle following your ideas ( I am already exercised by Cheerful! ) but they will be interesting and educational struggles.
 
Good on you!
 
Mike.

Chuck you have a way of making people think differently. I know I am going to struggle following your ideas ( I am already exercised by Cheerful! ) but they will be interesting and educational struggles.
 
Good on you!
 
Mike.

Mike
 
 
I understand what you are saying....but rest assured ... this is most certainly an advanced kit.   Although the parts are all laser cut and the jigs and design concept will alleviate much trouble....the builder will need to proceed very slowly and with much care.  To explain a bit about my philosophy for kits.
 
- My goal is to design kits that wont look like kits when they are built.  The quality of the wood and the parts and the historical accuracy.  No ply for fittings...no metal castings....no skimping on the final visual product. To design them in such a way that folks can build them with the same few tools they would use to build any other kit straight of of the box.  Yet when its done, and placed right beside a scratch version of the same subject...most wouldnt be able to tell the difference.   The design I hope will inspire others to use the same concepts after finishing it to slowly cross over to scratch building.  Or adapt the concepts for other kits that are lacking.
 
-  For example...first I wanted to introduce a model that would serve as an introduction to clinker planking.  Not the whole hull...but just a few planks.  So builders might not be nervous about it.  It will  literally be a step by step intro lesson on clinker planking...how to bevel...what to bevel etc.  See below for the one plank
 

 
- second...this model will also serve as an intro to carving.  Yes there will be three small resin castings, but the majority of the carved scroll  work you see on the sides of the hull and transom will be carved by the builder.  These arent complex figureheads or difficult subjects to scare folks who never tried it.   Or never used boxwood.  You will get the piece laser cut from boxwood flat and ordinary... and you will learn some simple techniques to get started carving...with a few extra pieces just in case of a mishap.
 

 
How to secure the piece for carving,  how to use a stop cut,  how to shave and carve with simple tools....how to undercut areas etc.  Step by step.  Nothing to fancy and elaborate...no expensive tools...just giving it a try with a little help.  At least the way I have always done it...I am sure that others will have a better way but this will show how I do it.  These are the two main features that are the focus for me on this project as well as creating a way to frame the boat properly with floors and futtocks like the contemporary model.  And NO...the carvings wont be that small.  It fits on a dime because I was just testing my laser cutter to see how hard I could push it....how small can laser cut something intricate and still capture some detail.   That is pretty dang small.   The real thing is about six times larger.
 
- So for me...designing this kit was a way to introduce a few things that are lacking with most kits....mainly they all look like kits unless you do some serious bashing with no guidance to go with it.  Why not start out with great materials....and guide the builders through it as if it was stepping stone to scratch building.  
 
Having said that...
 
The jigs and laser cut parts I provide are something I would normally make for myself if  I were building this from scratch...by giving them to a builder who might not have the tools or experience to create them,  they will at least get a chance to see a pre-spiled plank so they can understand and can visualize why using a straight strip isnt going to work.  They will see the spiled shape and think....this is nuts.....then after they place it on the hull without any difficulty, hopefully a light bulb will go off.   Then MAYBE they can apply what they have learned and experienced with this kit on the many other kits they build...or scratch projects.  Its hard to explain but I hope it makes sense.   
 
It wont be a beginner kit.  It will be an advanced kit FOR intermediate builders looking to try something they havent done before.  Now I keep showing the same image of the same contemporary model.  It wont look exactly like this one...but its close.   It will actually look a lot more like the one pictured below except for the transom carving.  I am referring to the colors and the lack of carving inside....just bare panels.  This is remember just an intro to carving.  Note how the planks are fastened....not treenailed....they are nailed.  Nailed to the plank beneath it.  Just something new to learn and I am learning right along with it.  And yes it will be a challenge.
 

 
 
 
 
 
Chuck

Thank you all for the well wishes and questions  
 
Just to answer a few questions I have received about this Royal Barge.
 
-  It is circa 1700 - Queen Anne Style Royal Barge
 
- It WILL be a full Kit and not a scratch/with some laser cut parts.  My first full kit with everything all included.   
 
- It is 1:24 scale and will be about 20" long.  
 
-The stock kit will be made in Cherry with boxwood carvings and trim in place of gilding.  A boxwood or Pear upgrade version will also be made available as special order.  But the cherry will look great and be far less expensive.  I am using prime pieces that are "cherry-picked" for a lighter tone.  Examine the image below and look at how much waste wood there would be on each frame if Boxwood or pear was used...each kit in those woods will be considerably more expensive and mostly used up for the frame centers.   So consider this if you intend to order a custom cut version in Box or Pear. 
 
- The build board....for lack of a better word is included.  Its a design choice to replace of all of those pesky wood strips people glue across the frames for the longboat and pinnace to stabalize it for fairing and planking.  I have learned a lot watching all of you build those. This replaces the need for those and provides a sturdy base to Clinker plank....only three strakes will be on each kit to mirror the contemporary examples we are all familiar with.  They will be pre-spiled and laser cut to make it easier.
 
- The vertical lines shown on frames "10" and "J" in the previous post are there as a visual reference.  They are there so when you place the keel assembly on top of the frames.... you can eyeball the hull from dead astern and at the bow to make sure its straight and not tilted one way or the other.  Its a slightly different build concept than placing the frames into the keel slots first like the longboat.   The build-board lines them all up so you dont have to fight with trying to get them all centered and perpendicular....those that built the pinnace and longboat know what I am referencing.  It was a pain to do well and there are many many more frames in this kit.  It has proven more effective to place the keel onto the frames afterwards.....  
 
-  I dont have any idea of price yet because its too soon in the prototype process to tell.  
 
Thanks for the interest and its OK to ask the questions in this topic....I am sure many others have the same questions and its easier to answer them once here.  
 
Thanks again
 
Chuck
 

I thought I would give a little status update on this side project.   As some of you know I am working on two new complete kits for Syren...
 
One is of a 1/2" scale Royal navy barge circa 1700.  I am trying to push the envelope a bit with my design concepts and the laser cutter.   It will look like the contemporary model below but actually be almost exactly like the Queen Anne style barge shown in the Kriegstein collection.  Those that have the Seawatch book should check it out.  This will be a fully framed little model and I am very excited about it.  I am building off of the design concept I used for the long boat and pinnace but taking it a bit farther.  I hope these photos will give you a sufficient idea about the scope/concept of the project.  This is a big barge model at over 20" long.
 
I am fortunate to have found someone who is an excellent model builder who will build the prototype for me as it is designed.   Unfortunately there is just not enough time in the day for me to build everything I design.  He will be starting a build log shortly as I get a little further with the design.   Many of you know him and will enjoy his build log as you have enjoyed his others.  This project is a long, long way from being released but I thought I would show you what we are working on in addition to the many other projects.  It also shows you how Syren will bring new projects to market without having to wait for me to build the entire model.   I will be concentrating on finishing the Cheerful and then continuing with the Winchelsea.   At the same time I will be collaborating with others to bring you folks additional stuff!!! 
 
There are no deadlines for these projects...they will get done when they get done.  It is more important that these projects are the best possible within my limits of experience and expertise and they will never be rushed to market.   I will however keep you guys updated.   The last thing the hobby needs are more sub-par ship model projects and kits.  I apologize for the longer development times compared to others.  I hope its not too frustrating.
 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Al
 
I have 2 saws set up in my model shop and use the .03 slitting blade for most everything, probably 95% of the time.  The other saw is set up with the 36 tooth carbide that I use occasionally and rarely use the 24 tooth carbide at all. Only use the .02 slitting blade when cutting very thin stock like 1/16 or less or if you need it to make gratings but don't use it for general cutting.  The .04 slitting blade can be used as a general purpose blade but it will obviously waste more stock and I have not found it to be any better than the .03.  Good quality blades can be bought form me, Thurston, Martindale and Malco.  Stay away from the imports if you can.  Thurston and Martindale are probably the cheapest.  I only sell the Thurston blades but you probably can get them cheaper from them.  I have to buy about 400 blades at a time to get a small discount then they sit on the shelf for a year or so 
 
regards
Jim 

The quick answer to this question is, sure you can live without one of our saws. People have been building models for hundreds of years with just hand tools.  The reason why I built this saw?  Time and accuracy.  18 years ago I was working on a kit model from one of the Euro kit suppliers. The wood supplied with the kit was awful, not even good enough to burn.  This was long before quality wood and milled stock was available from Jeff Hayes at Hobbymill and Jason at Crown.  At first I bought 1/8 x 1/16 milled boxwood strips from one of the suppliers and they were all over the place.  They measured from .110 to .140 on the width.  When I called the supplier I was told that was within his cut tollerance.  Well I was used to working to slightly tighter tolerances so I didn't use the wood. I looked into buying a hobby size saw so I could cut my own and the only consideration was the Preac.  The Preac at $375.00 for the large table version looked good but didn't have the capability to cut thicker stock to more manageable sizes.   Having access to the machine shop which by day made parts for targeting lasers for the military I figured I'd build a better mouse trap.  Took me about a year between learning Autocad and designing it and I tossed a lot more parts into the scrap bin that I would like to admit but in the end I was happy with it and it's pretty much the same saw that is available today.  Now I could cut wood strips and hold + or - .001 all day long with a really good finish.  
 
So, has it made me a better modeler?  Maybe, maybe not.  I guess it all depends on how you look at it.  I don't have to worry about the size and quality of my milled stock.  I can sit in front of the saw and rip off 1/8 inch strips all day long and hold a very tight tolerance without much effort.  I can get a finish that sanding would only make worse so it gives me more time to concentrate on the things that scare me like carving.  
 
Am I quicker, you bet.  Do my planking jobs look better, sure do.  Could I have done it without the saw, sure.  Would have taken me considerable longer though and for me, modeling time is precious.   
 
My 2 cents worth
 
Jim Byrnes
Model Machines

Dr.
 
Yeah, they don't come up used very often.  Every once in a while I see one on ebay but they always sell for close to retail price so they do hold there value.  I keep a running list for used machines but have only had 2 to sell in the last 6 or 7 years.  Granted they are expensive but they are also not cheap to build. They are fully machined on CNC equipment and when you compare them to what is on the market I think they are a pretty good deal.  No castings, no plastic no junk.  All the parts are made in my shop, by me with the exception of the belt guards.  They are made by a local sheet metal shop.  I do all the assembly and square them up with dial indicators.  We have no employees, except me, I work for Donna.  She lets me come home when I have finished my quota for the day. The CNC's are also not cheap to maintain either.  Right now my oldest cnc mill is down.  I'm looking at a new 15HP motor and inverter.  Between buying the parts and having my maintenance guy install them the bill is going to be around 7 grand. That's a lot of saws. And occasionally Donna writes me a paycheck too.
 
Jim 

Greetings Bob and congrats on the build so far. It is a fun build and I enjoyed my attempt a lot.
Watching and waiting,
 
Mike.

Greetings Bob and congrats on the build so far. It is a fun build and I enjoyed my attempt a lot.
Watching and waiting,
 
Mike.

Greetings Bob and congrats on the build so far. It is a fun build and I enjoyed my attempt a lot.
Watching and waiting,
 
Mike.

Greetings Bob and congrats on the build so far. It is a fun build and I enjoyed my attempt a lot.
Watching and waiting,
 
Mike.

not seen this print before