GemmaJF

All
 
I have reviewed the replies and will recap here.
 
 
1.     1/64 and smaller may not require the nail pattern, no matter the size of the model.  Although some do try it.
 
2.     Copper plates made from copper tape applied over a varnished hull work very well.
 
3.     The problem with the nail pattern is it will be nearly impossible to replicate it to scale. It will appear bumpy and too busy.
 
4.     This applies to the thickness of the plate as well.  Some suggested gold leaf type of products and thinner stuff than copper tape.
 
5.     Making a nail pattern stamp to indent the copper plate seems to be the preferred way to create the nail pattern.  However dress maker's wheel was used by one and ponce wheels I know will do the trick as well. 
 
6.     Shiny copper is not authentic and neither is copper of all one color from keel to water line.  In actual ships there will be a color variation.  Some sort of green, not copper will be required to make it authentic.
 
7.     Chemical treatments are necessary to change the color of the plates.  The first suggestion was salt and vinegar.  However there are links for how to achieve different colors in post number 19 above.  There was a discussion of using vinegar on copper
 
8.      Urine was used by at least one of our group to achieve a brownish type of color.  It was applied after the copper was on the model.
 
9.     Nearly the last contribution was posted and translated from a German source who advised that as the copper ages it actually goes pink in parts.
 
I will continue to edit this post at the suggestion of contributors.  I have not had the time to search MSW for build logs to copy some of the posts here.   I may in the future.  
 
Phil    

Hi Steve, I've really enjoyed reading your log and it's been really informative.  I'm just about to start a Constructo 1:50 Bounty and I'm just pulling some photos together to start my own log.  I was really pleased to see your deck planking configuration as my kit doesn't specify what it should be and it provides long planking lengths which wouldn't be very realistic so I'm going to adopt your 120mm system.  Thank you once again for such a brilliant log.
Cheers
Nigel

Hi Everyone, here I go on my first build and I hope I can do it justice.

Thanks for the comments, the "likes" and just looking in...  
 
At last, a real update as life (the Admiral's health) got in the way.  The frame extensions have been removed and she's starting to look more like a frigate.   I still need to sand them down to the sheer strake but I'll be doing that when I need a break from the gundeck work.
 
Here's the pictures...  as always, a click on them will open them to full size (or what constitutes full size on MSW).  The last two are more of a reference shot for examining things on my part but I thought I'd toss them in anyway.  Sorry about the sawdust and mess.....
 

Thanks for the tip on the paints, I'll check into that. I agree with what has been said about tools, I just want to make sure this hobby is something I'm going to enjoy. I enjoyed building R/C airplanes, but that was before I had my stroke.

Ok, sorry, the next setback to old-fashioned modeler´s customs after the new colors of the Vic ;-)
 
XXXDAMn

Although I definitely like (try) to be accurate if I can, pink is too much 

Thanks for the feed back. I was a licensed mechanic for 40 years so I know that quality tools make a difference most of the time. (Snap-on screw drivers are great, Snap-on variable rate/variable angle swing arm press are over priced.)
I have a heat gun that I used when I was building R/C airplanes that gets quite a bit hotter than say a hair dryer, I wonder if that might work. I also plan on using a method I read about where you put half inch bead of CA on the edge in between the bulkheads so it holds the plank in place/form while the the wood glue dries. ( I reread this and realized I failed to mention I was talking about planking.

That is what I meant earlier: Apparently the copper tells, what the ship did last :-)
 
In our german forum there is a nice collection of pictures all of different shades in colo of the copperr.
 
There is a nice article in German from Peter Prystaz of Swiss minisail that could explain:
http://minisail.ch/de/werkkunde/kupfern.pdf "5. Patina:  (rough translation) As there are almost no more sea going coppered ships on regular trips, one started to imagining the appearance more than knowing it. Mostly it is displayed blank or green, which is wrong. If a ship is sea going the copper becomes pink. Yes, pink! The pinkish color is coming of the abrasion of the water molecules, the green only comes on the air. New copper is of shiny brownish color. If in drydock like the Cutty, it gets darker. If the ship is in saltwater but not moved it gets green [as seen on the Constitution]. If the ship was in harbour for longer, first the waterline gets pink the bottom last. So the color of the copper can accentuate the story of the model."   One more remark: There are some very nice pictures of recent copperings with highly glossy plates. I do think, this does not translate into the old days, as todays copper for sure has some kind of surface treating. Original copper plates that arrived in the shipyard for sure did not have this and also had enough time to "season".   [That also applies for the wood: It usually had enough time to season while being build, so there where never those like "fresh" cut wood looking ships ;-) ]   That lead to some trials on the color - all 1:100, the nails still a bit strong as those were the first tests.    Copper not too old, the bottom brown from lying in port, pink on the waterline and green above ...     ... sailing the brown getting less andgetting pinkish ...     ... and the brown gone and mostely pink.     Here the last two tests to compare.     On the bottom there are always some blank copper plates as reference :-)   Cheers, Daniel

I believe that the green band is seen only 'twixt wind and water' and would be scoured bright at the bow from water and debris flow. Trincomalee is static, so you don't see the scouring.

Great topic...and one I am going to address on my Triton cross-section. At 1/96 scale I am not even going to attempt a nail pattern! I am using a book and photos of HMS Trincomalee a lot as reference. Here's a decent shot of the copper showing different colours and the visibility of the nails.

 
Clear skies,
Gabe

After most of the day filing and sanding, the frames are shaped as well as the bow and stern pieces. Due to the fact that the the Endeavour is a buff bow most of the forward planks will need to be soaked allow them to bend without breaking, this will make planking quite slow as i have to wait for the timber to dry before gluing them on. i have fitted the first plank that intercepts with various spots on the gunwales and stern from which all other planks get there line. And the obligatory photos of my progress thus far.
 

 

 

 
 
 
 
Cheers Rexy.

Well, some success with the dowels.
 
I invested in a dremel and a dremel "workstation" this week.
 

 
As I mentioned previously the fore topmast is former from a 3mm (1/8") dowel which conveniently fits in the 1/8" collet.  Using the newly purchased dowel (since I broke the kit ones) I was able to successfully shape them as long as I carefully supported the dowel end (I was considering making a little support stand but had enough hands to be able to work!)
 
I used a file for the shaping and some sandpaper for a final smoothing.
 


 
The bottom of the mast needed a small reduction to fit the trestle tree and cap.
 

I'm just at the stage of rigging my scale 1:100 Bluenose II from Billing Boats.  This will be the 1st rigging I've ever done.  I'm trying to understand the "diagrammatic instructions" that came with the kit - the written instructions are effectively silent on this process.  I've been reading Frank Mastini's "Ship Modelling Simplified".  I like his suggestion to prepare as much of the rigging before stepping the masts.  Much of the info in that chapter deals with more complicated rigging than is present on my model - one of the reasons I chose the Bluenose II for a 1st build.  I also have a Artesania Latina Bluenose II kit and have been able to use their more detailed plans to help understand the Billing Boats model.  I have Jenson's Bluenose II book for reference.
 
I'm starting to get a feel for the process but I have a couple of simple questions.
 
In this diagram I wonder if it reasonable to run this as one continuous line?

 
I finally decided this diagram was meant to show the standing rigging and that the blocks are just hanging there for eventual use in the running rigging. Since there are no eyes shown to attach the blocks to I presume they can just be tied to the mast. 

 
I have no idea what this inset diagram was meant to convey!  It doesn't seem to correlate to anything on the plan.

Minor update.

Sheer clamp is in.



I really need to figure out what I'm going to use for stain. I don't feel like spending $50 on prestain, stain, polycrylic, and solvent cleaner. I tried some danish oil on a test piece but it doesn't have any real colour or depth. I thought I'd try some of the craft stain (Folk Art or Americana). I have their sealer from my wife's tole painting supplies I could use. Have to find some first (Michael's had everything but).

I am also really torn on the position on the main mast. As others have shown it looks so much more correct one thwart forward, but I'm afraid that's going to put the two sails too close together (I plan on displaying it with sails unfurled).

Just part of the natural process Gemma. The slight variations give it lots of character.

Well for one thing, I'm not an artist, I'm a hobbyist and about average at that. I'm no perfectionist so my procedures when it comes to copper plating is the same when it comes to hull planking, which ever is easiest for me to achieve the look that I'm after even if the ends justify the means. You can over think anything, but eventually the rubber will have to meet the road. Now as far as why I prefer shiny copper hulls and pretty ships versus weathered copper hulls and beaten weathered ship is for looks. I have built them both ways and a weather beaten ship model with weathered greenish hulls I couldn't hardly give them away and clients when given the opportunity asked to leave the hulls shiny because they liked them better that way and they sold way easier and for more money. Like I tell everyone who ask and some that don't: I'm not a perfectionist nor a purist and I don't build museum quality models. I build decorator pieces for homes and offices. 
 
This is about all I can contribute to this thread other than I use copper foil tape for copper plating no matter the size of the model and I have built some up to 50 inches long. I use a dress makers pattern wheel to make the rivet marks on the copper tape. I can buy a roll of copper tape which usually has 50 feet of tape for about $7.00 where as copper plates would cost me hundreds of dollars if applying them to a 50" model and they look great and serve the purpose.
 
 
mike   

Brian asked some questions about standards of copper plating.   Did a little research and have the following to offer.
 
Brian Lavery in The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War devotes chapter 11 to copper sheathing.  He provides the history and methods and techniques. He states the plates were 4 feet long and 14 inches wide and that this size became standard very early in the process.  He reports that three thicknesses (gauges) became standard by 1779.  They were 22oz, 28oz and 32oz per square foot.  "They were distributed about the ship according to the wear they were likely to encounter. The thickest were in the bows, the medium ones just behind the bows, and the rest of the ship was covered in the thinnest type."
 
Peter Goodwin in English Man of War devotes Chapter 10 to Hull Protection.  He provides a few diagrams.  He states the nails were spaced about  1 1/4 inches apart. He gives a little larger dimension of the plate at 4 feet long and 1foot 3 inches wide.  He also discusses the weight added to the ship.  In the case of a 74 gun ship, the 3300 plates needed added13 tons, plus the nails.  I believe my copy of the book contains a typo or editing error as he advises than 16 nails were used to secure each plate.  I think it would be closer to 160 nails if they are only 1 1/4 inches apart.
 
Phil

When cutting curved stock always cut so your knife runs away from the grain,never into it. Make several cuts not just one. You can back the piece with masking tape.Sand the same way ,away from the grain. Any rotary sander should also rotate away from the grain.not into it. Cut out your piece fairly roughly before you begin. If the waste side is thin it has room to move away rather than cracking. If all else fails trace out new parts to match the grain. I used to build balsa models as a kid and learned to cut out round wing tips and control surface edges like these.
  If you use a coping or jewelers saw ,nail a piece of 1/4 " hardwood such as maple or walnut to your work bench and cut out a V shape about 2" wide and 2 and1/2" deep and support your wood over the narrow part of the V and cut there,moving your wood to stay in the apex of the V.
  Buy a bottle of ACC.

Why is it that you want a display ship so badly, and why the Constitution? I'm not being sarcastic, it's a serious question to help you understand what you want.
 
Do you live in an area with a significant nautical tradition and want to fit in? If so, cheap and low-quality models like that are just as likely to get you laughed at as respected. Anyone who knows anything about the Constitution will be horrified if you show them either of those models, and anyone who doesn't won't really care what ship is on your mantle.
 
In all honesty, consider buying a nice painting instead. There are quite a few options for well-done nautical artwork that would look quite attractive on a mantle, be just as much of a conversation piece, and would support a real artist instead of whomever is producing those crappy knockoffs. Wouldn't need as much dusting, either.
 
If you really, really want a model, buy the plastic kit for the Revell Constitution at 1:196. It's pretty manageable for just about anybody to turn out a decent looking model without taking too long at it, it'll inherently be more accurate than anything you linked to, and having built it yourself will make it a much more interesting conversation piece.

Hello all,
 
Just starting to read up on and educate myself on ship building, this site looks to to be a great help as I move forward. Something I have always wanted to do and looking forward to my first ship, which I have not picked out yet.
 
regards

Here's my take:
 
Model Expo copper tape with nail pattern made from very small hypodermic tubing, so it is not raised, but rather shows the nail outline. Weathered with the "bodily fluid" method. There's more pictures of the copper and the stamping jig in my build log. 

See my post here http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/14942-the-best-copper-plates/#entry464779 for some information. I'm sure lots of other people will be able to provide more information. 
 
I absolutely agree that the bright copper doesn't look right (to me anyway). Part of my experimentation will be how do "un-brighten" it. Various folks have used chemicals (e.g. vinegar and salt) to do this. The tape seems to haves a coating of some sort, I need to work out how to remove it.
 
Richard 

Saw Frame 
 
I have this saw frame, and to say it's an improvement over standard frames is like saying wagyu beef burgers are an improvement over 1960s school cafeteria burgers. It's much, much lighter. With the cam saw tensioner, it's way faster to change blades and tensioning them doesn't require jamming some pointy steel corner on a normal saw frame into your hand.
 
 

  Knew Concepts Cam Tension Jewelers Precision Sawframes   Also if you don't buy real jeweler's saw frame blades, do so immediately. They're not expensive (~$20 for 144) and are an order of magnitude better than ones you get in hobby stores.     Nakanishi Brushless Micromotors   Like the flex shaft was a step up over standard Dremel, these are a major step up from any Dremel or Foredom rotary tool. I have the previous model, and it is so smooth and quiet that it has to be turning >10k before I can even hear it or feel it while holding the tool. They're just outstanding tools, making any rotary task easy and fun. They're hiding pricing for some reason, the basic kit of control unit and standard handset should be around $600.     Nut Files   These are unfortunately only available in a few fixed sizes, but if the sizes work for you, they're the perfect tool for creating ad-hoc precies grooves, they are specifically designed to create exact size, perfectly smooth grooves with no further processing - the grooves they are intended for are at the top of the neck of stringed instruments, and if they're not perfect bad things happen.       You can find them at Stew-Mac, LMI, or other luthier supply places.     Hackle Pliers (clamps)   These are used by fly-tiers to hold onto rooster neck feathers (hackle feathers) to wrap them around dry flies, they simulate legs. From a ship modeling standpoint, they are excellent little clamps that come in a number of styles with clamping strength from medium to pretty serious squishing.   The style of the ones to the top left are quite strong, and generally I use some sort of clamping pad to protect the work. The ones lower right are not so strong, and with the wider contact area are really excellent for clamping small bits of wood together.       JS Stockard unfortunately doesn't make it possible to isolate them, you have to start here at the list of companies and check out each one. That's not necessarily a bad thing through, because while you're there you should also check out the precision scissors, the thread bobbins, tweezers, and pliers. They're all excellent quality, there is no such thing as crappy fly-tying tools, at least not from any mainstream manufacturer.   And also my understanding is that fly-tying thread is the #1 choice of some of the better very small scale builders (bottle ships and the like).

Hi Charlie,
 
The best coppering job I've ever seen was on Sal D's Syren which won 1st Place in last year's Northeast Joint Model Clubs show in New London, CT. He details how he did it on his build log on MSW (starting with post #126). I've attached the link below, I pretty sure Sal won't mind.
 
Best,
John
 
http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/8410-us-brig-syren-by-sald-%E2%80%93-finished-316-scale/page-7