rtropp

Hi all,
I am still working on the deck. The jogging is not coming out as I had hoped and I am reworking it... again.
 
Meanwhile, I found this video on a different site and thought it might be of interest. It is time lapse of a full size tall ship being built. One of the things I liked is it helped me better understand the scale of models to a full size ship.
 

 
Hope you enjoy it.
 
Richard

My thought process so far:
 
Table Saw:
I looked at the Byrnes saw on their site as well as read comments on MSW.  I priced with added components that sounded important for my use, i.e., extended rip fence and zero clearance insert, I do not think I would need the tilting table, at least not at this time. It comes with a 24tooth carbide blade.  I am not sure if I would need a 36 tooth, or the 80 tooth early on. 
 
The Byrnes is kind of a stretch, but given the cost of wood such as Swiss Apple, I would want to avoid producing too much trash, and the Byrnes is the only saw for which there is consistently good reviews.
 
Sanding:
I have created sanding jigs, and they work reasonable for very small end cuts, etc. but, given the amount of sanding I do, I still lean towards the small workbench sander with its adjustable guides.  The Byrnes looks great but is a third more expensive.  I suspect I can get away using the Proxxon for sanding. 
 
Milling:
I think I understand your applications.  I need to learn more about milling, perhaps try it out.  I am going to continue looking for a reasonably effective x-y table to use with my Dremel work stand.  If I find the Dremel sanding set up limiting, I can always consider upgrading.  If not, there would not have been that much of an investment.
 
Scroll saw:
The jury is still out on this but they are inexpensive enough that it should not be too much of burden if I run across a real need. So, I will hold off for now.
 
Conclusion... at least for now:
So, given the great advice from everyone I am leaning towards buying the Proxxon Sander because I expect to use it as soon as it arrives.  Wonder how well it would do chamfers. The I would spend the extra for the Byrnes Table saw, even if I have to delay the saw. 
If anyone knows of a source for information (book, YouTube, etc.) about the type of Milling that Dirk discusses for wood models, please let me know.  All I can find seems to related to metal milling.
 
 
But, better get back to the boat or I will never move past the planking.
 
Again, I appreciate the time and help you all.
 
Richard

I am about to show my lack of knowledge about power tools.  Please bear with me.
 
I am not familiar with milling.  I did some research on Youtube.  It seemed to be a lot of grinding and shaping metals, but I can see where it would apply to wood parts.  I need to try my hand at it to see how it works.  Then I could value the purchase. 
 
Right now I have Dremels. The Dremel workstation (rotary tool holder) looks similar to the Micromot drill stand. I do not know if the Dremel Workstation would take the Micromot compound table. I am checking in a few places to see if anyone knows of one for the Dremel. There are a bunch on Amazon, and less expensive,  but I am not sure if they will fit or have the same functions.  On Amazon, many are called x-y tables.   
 
I did not think of the table saw as a primary tool for kit building.  I thought it was used mostly for cutting wood sheets down to strips or for cutting larger pieces to usable sizes. I was not even sure it worked as a chop saw given the small size of the parts. I would appreciate if you could give me an idea of what you use it for in your Syren build.
 
I am disappointed to hear that the sander may not be very useful.  I had hoped it would be very useful for smoothing, shaping, and squaring parts, giving them additional "polish" to make up for my lack of manual dexterity.
 
Meanwhile, I am making progress on the upper planking and that is rewarding.  It just takes a long time to cut around the ports.  I had two layers that were just straight planks between ports.  Boy did that seem easy after all the shaping.  .
 
Thanks,
Richard

Hi all,
I am working steadily on the build but the updates to the log are a little behind so I will try to catch up here. Also, have family visiting from California, with small children, so will probably not have much time.
 
The following is my build for the lower deck. I glued a few pieces together to test finishes. I used MinWax Golden Oak. I was having difficulty gluing the small planks side to side, so I used a piece of freezer paper as a base and glued some planking to it, then, after both gluing and staining, peeled the paper away. Pretty easy.
 

 
Next I made the lower deck full size. I found it easier to use the freezer paper as a glue and peel base rather than gluing each plank individually. I used a soft pencil for the caulking. Anything else I tried, watercolor markers, stain markers, etc., all allowed the color to spread through the wood so pencil worked best for me.
 

 
Next it was time for gun and sweep sills/lintels etc.
 
I found it really hard to cut and sand right angles. I was cutting a little large to enable fitting, but then my sanding ruined the angle. I tried two similar jigs.
For cutting:

 
and for sanding:

 
The piece to be cut was placed along the corner where the two jig pieces meet, then cut or sanded against the edge. These worked ok, but since I used the same wood as the kit, the jigs eventually were distorted. (I should not have been surprised at that outcome!!) And since I still was lousy at cutting right angles could not just cut away to reshape edge. (Catch 22??)
 
About this time my plastic hobby miter box arrived and that took care of the right angle cutting. Sanding was still a problem. Even with the right angle jig, the hand held sanding block was still not giving me a good right angle. So I took out the my new Dremel tool stand to see what I could cobble together.
 


You can see the that the Dremel holder is set up side ways. This allows me to use the handle to move the sanding head forward (laterally). I am using the dremel quick release sanding head because it is smooth all the way across with no screw head protruding. I also tried the Proxxon sanding head, which I like better, but it is smaller so more difficult to use. A ruined plastic Miter box is used to hold the wood piece. After squaring everything up, all I do is put the piece against the side of the miter, move the piece a small bit so it clears the end of the plastic miter box and then use the handle on the dremel stand to move the sanding head in towards it. It is producing a nicely squared sanding that I can keep going back to until the part fits. What's nice is that this sands to a square head even if the part is not cut squarely. (I'm so proud of me!!)
Also, you will notice the hose end from my shop vacuum clamped near the sander. It really works, and since I work in our sunroom, keeps everyone happy.
 
Below is the completion of the sills.
 

 
The bad news is that I am not really happy with the result. It is not as "faired" as I would want it to be. Part the problem is skill. Part was the need repair/replace many of the bulwarks (thin pieces at top of frames) because they were burned badly enough that the centery ply would crumble. My repair job was not... well, not great. So, the gun and sweep ports are difficult to fair. Also, the top of the lintel is not as straight horizontally across the ship as it should be, not sure how this will impact that top rail. I have tried to smooth and even out as much as I can without thinning the wood too much.
After much thought, I decided not to redo the work because that would mean reworking from the beginning with the bulkhead former. Instead, I will push ahead with the planking and see how it turns out before making that decision. I also checked the other laser cut parts and, now that I know what to look for, ordered replacements for those that look bad.
 
Next I painted the gun and sweep ports. I obtained an airbrush for another project and decided to use it when painting the kit. Lots of new experiences here.
 

 
 
And that brings it up to date for now.
 
I would appreciate getting your input, not just to the build itself, but whether this log is ok or if I am being too wordy!
 
Richard

Hi all,
well, a couple of weeks have gone by and I am making some progress. I also revised some of the work described in the last post.
 
This latest round started when I decided to use copper for the pintles and gudgeons instead of brass. I tried high temperature soldering in order to use brass/copper colored solder but it will take me too long to learn so I went on with low temperature, paste solder.
 
I could not find copper strips so had to learn how to fabricate from sheet. For the Gudgeons, I first soldered a copper tube to receive the pintle. You can see in this picture that I tried the dremel first but it was too coarse a cut. So I switched to my table saw with a fine blade.  
 

 
Then I cut 1/16"  strips on my table saw. (I fabricated the pintles differently, cutting the strips first then soldered the pins in place.)
 

 

 
At his point the pintles and gudgeons were dipped in vinegar and salt solution to age them to match the copper plates on the hull.  (That is the reason for some of the dark spots you see on the copper.)
 
I decided to simulate nails using the method shown by Alexey Domanoff - "Making small nails with round heads" can be found on youtube.  The pins shown below will be shortened even more before attached in place.
 

 
I then created a drilling template.
 

 
Free hand drilling following the template did not yield satisfactory results so I used the template to mark the center as well as the ends of each Pintle and Gudgeon and used the compound table on my mill to create a straight line of holes that were equidistant. I used two sided tape to hold the strip on wood backing and some additional tape to keep the ends firmly in place.  I did two of each to make sure I had extras for fabrication rejects.  (should have made 4 or 5 of each:-)
 

 

 
The pintles were glued on the rudder then the holes were cut into (not through) using the existing holes in the copper as guides.
 

 
I handled the gudgeons differently.  For these, I inserted the nails, used CA, then cut the the nail flush to the inside.
 

 

 
Finally I added the rings for the rudder chains.
 

 
 
 
That about covers the last few weeks.  Next challenge is attaching the rudder with the pintles and gudges to the rest of the ship.
 
Richard

I agree with Gaetan.  Also, it would allow modification/improvement based on personal practice.  I am not experienced in creating plans, but if anyone does, please post them.
 
Richard

If pieces need to be "re-hardened" how would it be done.  I'm thinking of pieces that need to be bent, but then need to hold some weight or pressure.
 
Richard

I have some more detail on fabricating the belaying pins.  Also a couple of changes.
 
The first change was to drill a hole in the center of a wood dowel to use in the tail stock instead of the foam piece.  It holds the work piece better.  I was concerned that the wood against wood rotation might cause some burning but had no problem. I could have worked without the tail stock support, but then I would only have been able to do one pin at a time.  With the support from the tail stock I could do three at a time.  Four was too much and the piece would bend interfering with the turning.
 

 
I used the foam to prevent the work piece from whipping around in the feed shaft.

 
I used the following diagram to work out the proportions.  I do not remember where I found it.  The fractions were part of the diagram showing the relationship between the various measures.  The  millimeters are my entries showing the actual measures for the Syren's belaying pins.  Since I was sure of the 1mm diameter of the lower pin (it came from the practicum and was indicated for the pin rail), I used it as the base measure and worked back to figure the remaining measurements. (taking measurements from the tiny brass pin was difficult.

 
As the diagram shows, the length can be divided into three equal parts.  I used a compass set at the one third to mark the segments on the work piece.  The first segment was the handle of the pin, the next two thirds were the lower section. I was able to work nine segments (3 pins) while keeping a stable work piece. I kept two small dividers at the required diameters to be able to constantly measure as I worked.  These three inch tools were a real help.  If anyone knows a source for more, especially if there are any that are smaller, please let me know.

 
I was having difficulty finding lathe chisels small enough to work the pins so I tried some of Flexcraft's smaller chisels. These worked very well.
 
I first rounded out the wood and brought it down to size using a gouge.
 


 
to shape the pin, I used their smallest gouge.

 
To bring the belaying pin to final shape and size I then used various files and sandpaper. Here is my tool layout.

 
The entire work area did not take up a lot of space.  I used a large piece of basswood as a base for the lathe to bring it closer to eye level. My back really started to ache after doing one or two :-)

 
One problem with this process and using the Proxxon wood lathe is the difficulty in maintaining consistency between pins.  Your pretty much free handing the cuts (even with the tool rest) and at that size it quite a task. I focused on the top part since it would be the most visible, and will try bring the length of the lower pin to size as I install them.
 
They are not as good as the supplied pins, but I have a sense of accomplishment having been able to make them. So, like the figure head, I will use them.
 
This experience has me getting closer to a purchase decision on the Sherline lathe which seems to be the lathe of choice by most of the folks at MSW. I would be curious to hear if, for this type of work, digital readouts would be worthwhile to get uniformity between pieces. 
 
thanks for all your comments and likes
Richard
 

If pieces need to be "re-hardened" how would it be done.  I'm thinking of pieces that need to be bent, but then need to hold some weight or pressure.
 
Richard

I have a powered chisel that I use for sculpting.  I would not, could not, use it for modeling.  Its finest adjustment along with its weight would make it too hard to control given the fine work we require. 
But I am a slow and go modeler.  Even though I have a range of dremels and proxxon tools I still tend to use hand tools for the fine work required.  
Richard

Its been a long time and I felt I should post something.
I have been working on making wood carronades.  I went through a number of different attempts but making templates to use as cutters did not work. making them on a wood lathe by hand seems to work better.  I went through a bunch of wood developing skills for uniformity.  I thought it would be similar to making the belaying pins but the variance in the thickness of different parts was much more noticeable.  So, I few feet of boxwood later I seem to be getting the hang of it.
 
I spend more time stopping and measuring than actually cutting.  But, they are getting better.
 

 

 
I have been experimenting with painting but was covering the detail.  I read the experience of others using multiple thin coats rather than one thick coat and might try that. But in the meantime I decided to go a different route and use wood dye.  With two or three dips, drying between dips, and then a thin coat of poly they look pretty nice to me.  But, I will continue to experiment. the picture below is an early attempt and i am hoping that the newer carronades have sharper detail which should help the dye job look better.

 
The tools are the same mixture I used on the belaying pins and work pretty well.

 
I ordered a set of PSI micro lathe tools (LCAN8MD) but it only took one day to sent them back. The sizes were great but the quality was awful. I could have sharpened out the nicks but when a sliver of brass from the ferrule drew blood I packed them up. (It is the sharp end that is supposed to cut :-)
 
         
 
 
 
 
Richard

Its been a long time and I felt I should post something.
I have been working on making wood carronades.  I went through a number of different attempts but making templates to use as cutters did not work. making them on a wood lathe by hand seems to work better.  I went through a bunch of wood developing skills for uniformity.  I thought it would be similar to making the belaying pins but the variance in the thickness of different parts was much more noticeable.  So, I few feet of boxwood later I seem to be getting the hang of it.
 
I spend more time stopping and measuring than actually cutting.  But, they are getting better.
 

 

 
I have been experimenting with painting but was covering the detail.  I read the experience of others using multiple thin coats rather than one thick coat and might try that. But in the meantime I decided to go a different route and use wood dye.  With two or three dips, drying between dips, and then a thin coat of poly they look pretty nice to me.  But, I will continue to experiment. the picture below is an early attempt and i am hoping that the newer carronades have sharper detail which should help the dye job look better.

 
The tools are the same mixture I used on the belaying pins and work pretty well.

 
I ordered a set of PSI micro lathe tools (LCAN8MD) but it only took one day to sent them back. The sizes were great but the quality was awful. I could have sharpened out the nicks but when a sliver of brass from the ferrule drew blood I packed them up. (It is the sharp end that is supposed to cut :-)
 
         
 
 
 
 
Richard

I'm finally close to the end of the Inboard Bulwarks section of Chapter Eleven.Making the belaying pins and the ring bolts took some time.
 
I tried to add the ring bolts as follows:


 
This did not work out, the ring kept slipping.
 
So I altered my method.  I drilled a hole in a small flat sheet and with the eye of the bolt just at the level of the surface it was easier to manipulate the ring and close it.  

 
These pictures show some of the work on the inboard bulwarks.  Except for the belaying pin rails, none of it is permanently glued.  I may glue most of it but not the rings for the carronades. Given my inexperience when starting the build, I may need to move things around to better fit the carronades.  Also, not sure of my skill at tying off the gun ropes so may need to tie them off, then glue to bulwark.  
 

 
I painted the rails and the cleats before attaching.  I also inserted a small pin in each to strengthen it when glued.  When cutting previous eye bolts to size I saved the cut off and that's what I used.
The will have to be retouched but I figure that will be easier than trying to paint them after attaching.
 


 
I have mounted some of the belaying pins to see how they would look.  Not too terrible for home made.  There is some inconsistency in size but I will try to match similar ones on the same rail so they don't look too out of place.  I made enough for the bulwark pin rails so I will need to make more anyway.  I can always replace the ones that look really our of place and I would really rather use the ones I made even if those supplied are "prettier" or more consistent.
 


 
I am now working on the block that ties to the traveler.  Boy are those tiny.  I had this device from model expo to round out the edges.  It works pretty well but I think it needs finer sandpaper.

 
I also reamed the holes a bit to clean it up.  I used a satin poly to finish it up. now I have to rig it.
 

 
I had a couple of questions:
Did anyone finish these differently?
Which supplied threads did you use to strop... did you serve or just tie it off?
What type of glue did you use to attach the eye bolts, etc to the bulwark?
 
Thanks
Richard

Hi Jesse,
I follow your build log and saw the post about using the hand drill.  Before I had the Proxxon lathe I also used the hand drill. I had a rest similar to yours but added a tool rest which is necessary for lathe cutting.  Also I made sure that the block holding the end of the piece is fairly tight around the wood to prevent vibration.  It is near impossible to use gouges if the piece is vibrating too much.
 
The cutting tools need to be very sharp.  That's key. I have an inexpensive sharpening block that is made by Flexcut.  It has a number of shapes that  fit the various gouges and angles.
 
Before trying to lathe I did a lot of reading and U Tubing (U Tubing??? not really a verb but...oh well). It is important to use the gouges as you would in a full size lathe. That means a support / tool rest to hold the tool while working it.  The angle of the tool and position in relation the work piece is also important. U-Tube is a great source for learning how to use the lathe.  Any of them, full size or small, will have the same basic operating principles.
 
That said, I make extensive use of Files for the final shaping and smoothing.  I also take a final pass with very fine sanding twigs.
My process  to use the gouge to bring the piece to its maximum diameter.  Then I move to the smaller gouge to get things to final shape.  Finally, I go to work with files. I have sets in a number of grades and sizes, all small for modeling.  The sanding twigs do a great job of smoothing when the area is really narrow, like in the belaying pins.
 
It became a lot faster to use the micro gouges as lathe tool rather than rely on files alone.  
 
Richard

As an additional thought, I am going through some of the other builds to see what they seem to use most.
 
Richard

Thomas,
I understand.  I think I am getting closer to investing in a Sherline.  I will probably go with the DRO (digital readout). I am trying to decide which accessory package to get with it.  At this point, I dont want to overbuy, but might as well get what will be needed for the build.
 
Richard

Thomas,
Thanks for the tip.
Do you know of any references, pictures or links that would show how to use analog measurement devices with a wood lathe? I am having some difficulty visualizing this.
 
Richard

I have some more detail on fabricating the belaying pins.  Also a couple of changes.
 
The first change was to drill a hole in the center of a wood dowel to use in the tail stock instead of the foam piece.  It holds the work piece better.  I was concerned that the wood against wood rotation might cause some burning but had no problem. I could have worked without the tail stock support, but then I would only have been able to do one pin at a time.  With the support from the tail stock I could do three at a time.  Four was too much and the piece would bend interfering with the turning.
 

 
I used the foam to prevent the work piece from whipping around in the feed shaft.

 
I used the following diagram to work out the proportions.  I do not remember where I found it.  The fractions were part of the diagram showing the relationship between the various measures.  The  millimeters are my entries showing the actual measures for the Syren's belaying pins.  Since I was sure of the 1mm diameter of the lower pin (it came from the practicum and was indicated for the pin rail), I used it as the base measure and worked back to figure the remaining measurements. (taking measurements from the tiny brass pin was difficult.

 
As the diagram shows, the length can be divided into three equal parts.  I used a compass set at the one third to mark the segments on the work piece.  The first segment was the handle of the pin, the next two thirds were the lower section. I was able to work nine segments (3 pins) while keeping a stable work piece. I kept two small dividers at the required diameters to be able to constantly measure as I worked.  These three inch tools were a real help.  If anyone knows a source for more, especially if there are any that are smaller, please let me know.

 
I was having difficulty finding lathe chisels small enough to work the pins so I tried some of Flexcraft's smaller chisels. These worked very well.
 
I first rounded out the wood and brought it down to size using a gouge.
 


 
to shape the pin, I used their smallest gouge.

 
To bring the belaying pin to final shape and size I then used various files and sandpaper. Here is my tool layout.

 
The entire work area did not take up a lot of space.  I used a large piece of basswood as a base for the lathe to bring it closer to eye level. My back really started to ache after doing one or two :-)

 
One problem with this process and using the Proxxon wood lathe is the difficulty in maintaining consistency between pins.  Your pretty much free handing the cuts (even with the tool rest) and at that size it quite a task. I focused on the top part since it would be the most visible, and will try bring the length of the lower pin to size as I install them.
 
They are not as good as the supplied pins, but I have a sense of accomplishment having been able to make them. So, like the figure head, I will use them.
 
This experience has me getting closer to a purchase decision on the Sherline lathe which seems to be the lathe of choice by most of the folks at MSW. I would be curious to hear if, for this type of work, digital readouts would be worthwhile to get uniformity between pieces. 
 
thanks for all your comments and likes
Richard
 

I am looking for another chuck for my Proxxon wood lathe. 
I have the one that uses two posts to tighten but my hands are beginning to have difficulty.  I would like to find one that uses a  t-bar type screw to adjust the jaws.
Does anyone know if the 27024 independent four jaw chuck use a t-bar type adjuster?  If not, what other ones will fit the db250?  Cost is a consideration
Thanks for the help
Richard

Wefalk,
You are right, once it was cleaned off most of the stain went away.
Richard

I just took another look at my post, boy does it ramble on, I guess you hit a nerve.  Hope there is something in there that is helpful.
 
Richard

I too agree with Mark. I tried to use Dremels and other power tools when I began but soon learned that they are hard for a beginner to control, especially when you are working on extreme miniatures and still learning what the outcome of the work should be.  Working by hand will give you a feel for what it takes to get the right results before you try to speed things up. You will hear others on the site repeat the mantra, work slow, be patient, let the eye hand coordination build. I heeded early on when more experienced builders advised to treat each tiny component as a project in itself.
 
When I started I did most of my cutout work with and Xacto or similar knife.  I scored the cut lightly a few times before making my final cut.  I also found that my cutting is better when I use a harder surface than the rubber cutting mat that are common to hobbyists. The mat might allow the piece to bend when cutting which can alter the cut or splinter the bottom of the cut.  I have a piece of linoleum type tile that gives me better results than a cutting mat... which I still keep on the worktable for general cutting and to protect the surface of the table.
 
It is very important to use sharp tools.  A dull tool will "wander' with the wood grain.  I buy my blades, mostly #11, by the hundred.  Some of the folks keep a sharpening stone nearby and give them a swipe every few cuts.  They still replace them frequently. Chisels need to be kept extremely sharp to slice wood rather than splinter it.  I spent a fair amount of time learning how to sharpen chisels on diamond stone.  My smallest chisels are 1/16" or a little smaller, so they dull quickly and require proper sharpening.
 
Another of my most useful tools is a set of metal files for wood working.  These are slower but will give you better results as you start.  There are some good needle file sets that are cheap on Ebay. I especially like files made by Tamiya.  They have three sizes with different grit. The key for me was to not try a quick back and forth motion but rather to take one or two passes at a time and then look at the work to see where I was.  Also, with files and chisels I use a light stroke letting the tools do the work.  I don't try to force them. They work better than sandpaper for because they keep their shape throughout the cut. 
 
When I started this hobby I did a lot of practice on scrap wood , still do before starting a complex cut.  I often go through a lot of scrap wood, more than I care to admit to, before I get a usable part. 
 
I am one of those who enjoys the journey as much as getting to the destination.  I will work for hours, with a pile of attempts in the scrap bin before I get what I want.  There are those on MSW who make it look really easy, most have a list of builds under their names which built their skills. they had to learn at some point and they were not speed demons when the did, so try not to compare your initial attempts with their much more experienced work.
 
 As for frustration, we all experience that, even the very skilled.  I find that stepping back... with a glass of vodka, helps.
 
Richard

Thanks for the comments, encouragement & the "Likes".
 
I added a small lip or foot to the brackets. This was very small detail & a lot of extra time but I thought they looked a little better this way. Kept losing the darned little things so I strung them all on a wire loop - lost none after that. Pinned them through the lugs with wire & managed to keep them all movable somehow. (sorry some of the pictures didn't come out focused very well)
 

I have been slowly working on it while I've been sick. Decided to thin the sleds. Had to pop the metal piece off thinned both wooden components and thinned the wheels down a lot too.
 
While all this was being worked on I looked over my ship & saw a lot of battle damage. Replaced a broken bumpkin, glued down a lot of copper plate corners, and glued some gun port lids back on.
 
I also filed the gun port openings slightly, not much but every little bit will help with lowering the carronades. This also gave me a chance to even them up better than I had them before.
 
 

I had wandered onto the Little Machine shop site and they have a lathe, the Sieg X2D that comes with a power feed and is less expensive than the Sherline and seems to have a larger feature set.
I wondered if anyone had experience with it?
 
I know that by now I am belaboring the point but I really feel the need for due diligence before I spend a thousand dollars or more. I am strongly leaning towards the Sherline based on all I have heard so far, plus it is an American company.  But I want to check the alternatives.
 
Thanks you all for you patience.
Richard