Jaager
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Jaager got a reaction from Canute in Crown Timberyard, evaluation of some wood sheets
Harvesting your own wood, or starting with lumberyard stock is not a requirement for scratch building. It is more something like a fetish for those of us who want to "live off the grid" for our wood sources.
As far as scratch building is concerned, I consider that it means starting with just plans and assembling a vessel. It is freedom from the limitations from the offerings of kit manufacturers.
Using pre-made hardware such as cannon or eye bolts, does not alter that, although it may run afoul of some contest rules if competition is something that you enjoy. I think that the metal parts are more of a Model Engineering skill.
Prototype ship builders did not hesitate using outside manufacturers to provide wheels, winches, or anything else they could get as soon as the Industrial Age began. There is no reason a modeler should not do the same if the part matches and is the correct scale - if that is how they wish it.
Not relevant to anything:
I would not build a scratch model at the same scale of any vessel available as a kit.
I would never use POB as a method to scratch build.
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Jaager got a reaction from RichardG in Crown Timberyard, evaluation of some wood sheets
Harvesting your own wood, or starting with lumberyard stock is not a requirement for scratch building. It is more something like a fetish for those of us who want to "live off the grid" for our wood sources.
As far as scratch building is concerned, I consider that it means starting with just plans and assembling a vessel. It is freedom from the limitations from the offerings of kit manufacturers.
Using pre-made hardware such as cannon or eye bolts, does not alter that, although it may run afoul of some contest rules if competition is something that you enjoy. I think that the metal parts are more of a Model Engineering skill.
Prototype ship builders did not hesitate using outside manufacturers to provide wheels, winches, or anything else they could get as soon as the Industrial Age began. There is no reason a modeler should not do the same if the part matches and is the correct scale - if that is how they wish it.
Not relevant to anything:
I would not build a scratch model at the same scale of any vessel available as a kit.
I would never use POB as a method to scratch build.
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Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Crown Timberyard, evaluation of some wood sheets
Harvesting your own wood, or starting with lumberyard stock is not a requirement for scratch building. It is more something like a fetish for those of us who want to "live off the grid" for our wood sources.
As far as scratch building is concerned, I consider that it means starting with just plans and assembling a vessel. It is freedom from the limitations from the offerings of kit manufacturers.
Using pre-made hardware such as cannon or eye bolts, does not alter that, although it may run afoul of some contest rules if competition is something that you enjoy. I think that the metal parts are more of a Model Engineering skill.
Prototype ship builders did not hesitate using outside manufacturers to provide wheels, winches, or anything else they could get as soon as the Industrial Age began. There is no reason a modeler should not do the same if the part matches and is the correct scale - if that is how they wish it.
Not relevant to anything:
I would not build a scratch model at the same scale of any vessel available as a kit.
I would never use POB as a method to scratch build.
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Jaager got a reaction from jml1083 in Crown Timberyard, evaluation of some wood sheets
The product reports out as being both precise and accurate. If you redo the measurement in the Summer in a high humidity environment, it is possible the the values would be higher. The point being that with wood, a bit of latitude is appropriate with accuracy. This product is excellent.
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Jaager got a reaction from Canute in Varnish and primer
Primer is to seal the wood and provide a smoother surface for follow on paint or "varnish".
Shellac (thinned to 50% if using a product already in solution) is the classic primer.
Tung oil diluted to 50% (1:1) by mineral spirits is another type of primer. Tung followed by primer strength shellac is another choice.
Classic vanish is boiled Linseed oil heated to dissolve in shellac - not really a DIY product.
Sand and Sealer is a product that is primarily intended for use on open grain/open pore wood like Oak, Hickory, Walnut. It tends to be thick in consistency and will leave a layer that might be out of scale (too thick).
The reason that a mat finish (egg shell) is preferred is one of scale effect. Most of us produce models that are between 1:50 and 1:100 of the actual vessels. An actual vessel with a high gloss finish would appear as having a mat finish if viewed clearly from a distance where it was seen as 1-2% of its actual size.
To use polyurethane on your model is a matter of whether you are prejudiced against using plastic on your model.
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Jaager got a reaction from geoff in Varnish and primer
Primer is to seal the wood and provide a smoother surface for follow on paint or "varnish".
Shellac (thinned to 50% if using a product already in solution) is the classic primer.
Tung oil diluted to 50% (1:1) by mineral spirits is another type of primer. Tung followed by primer strength shellac is another choice.
Classic vanish is boiled Linseed oil heated to dissolve in shellac - not really a DIY product.
Sand and Sealer is a product that is primarily intended for use on open grain/open pore wood like Oak, Hickory, Walnut. It tends to be thick in consistency and will leave a layer that might be out of scale (too thick).
The reason that a mat finish (egg shell) is preferred is one of scale effect. Most of us produce models that are between 1:50 and 1:100 of the actual vessels. An actual vessel with a high gloss finish would appear as having a mat finish if viewed clearly from a distance where it was seen as 1-2% of its actual size.
To use polyurethane on your model is a matter of whether you are prejudiced against using plastic on your model.
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Jaager got a reaction from GuntherMT in Probably the dumbest planking question ever....
It is a small piece of wood (end cuts/ scrap usually) at the end of the pin. Just pinning a plank to a frame is good for locating it, but it does not apply much downward clamping pressure. If you use the pinhead to apply the pressure, a dent larger the the trunnel is often made. If the pin is thru doweled, the piece of wood is between the pinhead and the plank. If the pin hole is shallow, the pin is bent above the wood piece to apply the pressure.
If you want to go old school, the wood piece is split off and the pin nipped at the plank surface. You then have brass trunnels. If you want wood or bamboo trunnels, the whole hutchcock is removed and the pin hole bored to match the trunnel diameter.
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Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Probably the dumbest planking question ever....
It is a small piece of wood (end cuts/ scrap usually) at the end of the pin. Just pinning a plank to a frame is good for locating it, but it does not apply much downward clamping pressure. If you use the pinhead to apply the pressure, a dent larger the the trunnel is often made. If the pin is thru doweled, the piece of wood is between the pinhead and the plank. If the pin hole is shallow, the pin is bent above the wood piece to apply the pressure.
If you want to go old school, the wood piece is split off and the pin nipped at the plank surface. You then have brass trunnels. If you want wood or bamboo trunnels, the whole hutchcock is removed and the pin hole bored to match the trunnel diameter.
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Jaager got a reaction from GLakie in MDF for laser-cutting new frames
I think you should be careful about terminology. The transverse parts in POB are actually molds of the cross sectional hull shape rather than being bulkheads and they certainly are not frames. They are just where a few of the frames would be. Bulkhead is a useful short hand term to describe the unit, but using "Frame" would cause confusion.
MDF is as much the binder as it is wood fibers. The binder is what would be toxic. For many of us there is a philosophical split between using Nature supplied components and man made components. Plywood is a step towards man made for pre 1880's ship models and MDF is major step in the plastics direction.
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Jaager got a reaction from russ in Probably the dumbest planking question ever....
I have read a lot of articles covering POF techniques and I can't recall any where the ceiling was applied first. But in most of them - the outside planking was completely or partially omitted to show the frames.
Russ exactly stated my thoughts on how it should be done.
In real practice, I think it was also done as Russ stated.
One - I think the outside planking was thru doweled and thru nailed. The inside planking would be messed up if was present.
Two - in many vessels, the space between the frames was filled with rock salt as the ceiling went up, so the planking would need to be there.
For models
I am of the Underhill school of belt and suspenders ( glue and dowels for all joining ). In this case, the planking is held by lil pins with hutchcocks instead of clamps - the pin holes being later enlarged to trunnel diameter. It does mean that the lil pin locations need to match the final trunnel pattern.
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Jaager got a reaction from kees de mol in Organizer and drill-bits
Not my idea, but a 2 inch block of Styrofoam wall insulation (blue or pink), cut to whichever X/Y dimensions needed, and hot glued to a 1/2" plywood base makes a good bench top organizer. Home Depot sells 1 x 2 sheets of 1 inch for misc use that is not expensive and two layers can be hot glued up.
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Jaager got a reaction from augie in Probably the dumbest planking question ever....
I have read a lot of articles covering POF techniques and I can't recall any where the ceiling was applied first. But in most of them - the outside planking was completely or partially omitted to show the frames.
Russ exactly stated my thoughts on how it should be done.
In real practice, I think it was also done as Russ stated.
One - I think the outside planking was thru doweled and thru nailed. The inside planking would be messed up if was present.
Two - in many vessels, the space between the frames was filled with rock salt as the ceiling went up, so the planking would need to be there.
For models
I am of the Underhill school of belt and suspenders ( glue and dowels for all joining ). In this case, the planking is held by lil pins with hutchcocks instead of clamps - the pin holes being later enlarged to trunnel diameter. It does mean that the lil pin locations need to match the final trunnel pattern.
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Jaager got a reaction from tkay11 in Wood Selection/thickness questions
A two deck fourth rate vessel will be a challenging first for scratch POF. It is possible. I would suggest a cutter, schooner, or small brig to begin, but they are not as "sexy" as a Ship-of-the-Line when first looking at this endeavor.
POF is certainly closer to how the original vessels were built. It is my preference.
Except for the building board, there is not much use for plywood with POF.
The major sources of cost will be the tools, not the wood.
You can use locally available species. Some of us harvest our own from the "wild".
My favorite - Apple - is not often obtainable any other way.
Lime (Linden/Basswood) will work for much, if not all. - I prefer harder wood, but that is an individual choice.
Some species are open grain - open pores - have high contrast between Spring and Summer wood and do not look good to me when simulating wood at model scales ; Oak, Walnut, Mahogany, Hickory, Aspen. But again, that is a personal preference.
You can use hand tools for much of the work. If you use Lime, hand tool work will be faster than with the harder species.
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Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Wood Selection/thickness questions
From the questions that you ask, it appears that you are scratch building HMS Leopard.
Asking about a plywood keel suggests that you are planning to use POB as the method to form the hull.
The materials used to build the hull of a late 18th century warship is a bit more involved than a single thickness of planking. The sizes of the parts of the hull are what is called Scantlings.
The easiest source for these:
As for Leopard, she is well documented in the following book:
There is even a set of removable plans at 1:96
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Jaager got a reaction from Archi in Classic old Dutch Treatise by Nicolaas Witsen 1671
www.tamupress.com
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Jaager got a reaction from flying_dutchman2 in Classic old Dutch Treatise by Nicolaas Witsen 1671
www.tamupress.com
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Jaager got a reaction from hornet in Diluting PVA Glue
If you use natural fiber rigging material and you care how long the rigging will last, consider using bookbinders/archival quality PVA.
Lineco Neutral pH Adhesive is one brand that is available. The pH of Titebond II is 3.0 - which is fairly acidic. Not much negative effect on a closed wood-wood area, but rigging is all open to air surface area. Although we need it to live, oxygen is destructive to organic materials that do not have active repair systems (are living). -
Jaager got a reaction from trippwj in Classic old Dutch Treatise by Nicolaas Witsen 1671
www.tamupress.com
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Jaager got a reaction from druxey in Classic old Dutch Treatise by Nicolaas Witsen 1671
www.tamupress.com
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Jaager got a reaction from EricWilliamMarshall in Sovereign of The Seas by SawdustDave - FINISHED
I got plans for HMS Prince a long time ago. I later worked thru part of the exercise in Deane's Doctrine in developing plans for a first rate of about 1670. In doing this, I learned that vessel length was based on touch of the keel. When I checked the plans of HMS Prince, I found that its length was based on LBP, not touch. The model plans were about 25-30 feet too short. Because they used the model in the Science Museum to provide the deck details, the deck is a bit crowded - trying to squeeze in the hatches and bits and such and the gunports were too close together. Plus, the model looks short and fat.
If your plans are too short, you can measure the distance from the front edge of the keel to the scraph of the stem at the gundeck and the back edge of the keel to the scarph on the sternpost. Add this distance to the center of the Keel piece at the dead flat (midship mold). Make two more copies of the midship mold and add them on either side of "0" and call one "A" and the other "1". You will need to adjust the gunports, and deck furniture between the quarterdeck and forecastle, but you will have the correct distance to place it all. This will save having to redraft the hull lines
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Jaager got a reaction from SawdustDave in Sovereign of The Seas by SawdustDave - FINISHED
OK. On your 1st jpeg - the keel - at the stern - extend the inner line of the sternpost to the lowest horizontal line. This will be the aft end of the keel "touch". At the bow, the fore part of the "touch" is where the stem line starts to curve up. Measure this distance. Using the scale of the plans (1:76, 1:72, 1:64) Covert measured inches to full size feet.
If the scale is 1:76, then 127 feet should be = 1.67 feet or 20 1/16 inches. If the measured touch is 20 inches then the plans are correct. If it is closer to 16 inches, then the plans were drawn incorrectly. At the place on the keel where the center mold is placed - add the extra length. If you measure 16 inches and it should be 20 1/16 add 4 1/16 more to the keel here.
Adding more molds is not a bad thing. If you had twice as many or more, you could get by with just a single layer of planking. The planks would need to be twice as thick. The hard part is that you would have to draft the outlines of the intermediate molds. When you do this, you are doing the most difficult and most tedious part of POF construction.
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Jaager got a reaction from avsjerome2003 in Sovereign of The Seas by SawdustDave - FINISHED
I got plans for HMS Prince a long time ago. I later worked thru part of the exercise in Deane's Doctrine in developing plans for a first rate of about 1670. In doing this, I learned that vessel length was based on touch of the keel. When I checked the plans of HMS Prince, I found that its length was based on LBP, not touch. The model plans were about 25-30 feet too short. Because they used the model in the Science Museum to provide the deck details, the deck is a bit crowded - trying to squeeze in the hatches and bits and such and the gunports were too close together. Plus, the model looks short and fat.
If your plans are too short, you can measure the distance from the front edge of the keel to the scraph of the stem at the gundeck and the back edge of the keel to the scarph on the sternpost. Add this distance to the center of the Keel piece at the dead flat (midship mold). Make two more copies of the midship mold and add them on either side of "0" and call one "A" and the other "1". You will need to adjust the gunports, and deck furniture between the quarterdeck and forecastle, but you will have the correct distance to place it all. This will save having to redraft the hull lines
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Jaager got a reaction from CaptainSteve in Sovereign of The Seas by SawdustDave - FINISHED
There are 2 relatively recent books about this vessel: authors - James Sephton, 2011 and Hendrick Basmann, 2002.
Before you cut wood, you may wish to check the following:
Possible - about the time that these plans were drawn, there was misunderstanding about hull length.
After about 1700, the given length was that of LBP (length between perpendiculars) with the perpendiculars being where the inside of the scarph at the stempost and sternpost meet the line of the gundeck (or main deck). There were slight variations in nominclature. There was at least one set of plans for a 17th century warship drawn using this to match the published hull length.
Before ~1700, the given length was "touch" ( the portion of the keel assembly that is congruent with the baseline). The stem and sternpost made the actual length longer.
If the published length matches what would be LBP - then the plans have the vessel about 20% too short.
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Jaager got a reaction from avsjerome2003 in Sovereign of The Seas by SawdustDave - FINISHED
There are 2 relatively recent books about this vessel: authors - James Sephton, 2011 and Hendrick Basmann, 2002.
Before you cut wood, you may wish to check the following:
Possible - about the time that these plans were drawn, there was misunderstanding about hull length.
After about 1700, the given length was that of LBP (length between perpendiculars) with the perpendiculars being where the inside of the scarph at the stempost and sternpost meet the line of the gundeck (or main deck). There were slight variations in nominclature. There was at least one set of plans for a 17th century warship drawn using this to match the published hull length.
Before ~1700, the given length was "touch" ( the portion of the keel assembly that is congruent with the baseline). The stem and sternpost made the actual length longer.
If the published length matches what would be LBP - then the plans have the vessel about 20% too short.
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