jud

I apologize Chris as I am probably one of those members who misunderstood what you were trying to do with the thread.
 
I think another big issue that causes the new builder to get in over there heads is how they are introduced to the hobby or ships in general. They see the Constitution, Victory, Cutty Sark etc. and want to build them because those are the ones in abundance and available to see in person. The inspiration is set to that level of wow! and it is hard from that point to want to build a much simpler ship. Many of the simpler starter kits are of less famous ships and as such they get fewer people who even know about them much less want to build. Then as I have seen others say, "canons are cool!" As a kid inspiration is going to come from that 100 gun man of war and not a small 0-4 gun vessel.
 
I think that to help encourage first time builders to choose a simpler ship to start from is that we need to find ways to promote those smaller, simpler vessels. Just in the 6 month I have been apart of this community my knowledge and exposure to other ships as expanded immensely. I'm not completely sure the best ways of doing this but perhaps one idea would be to somehow find ways of featuring beginner kits and make them appealing. Possibly by listing their history or significance to a particular country by talking them up much like we see on the more popular ships. Even perhaps create a section on here that is specifically for beginner ships so that new comers to the hobby can see other first time builder's work so that they feel more comfortable sharing their work and not feel like their skills are sub par when all they see are some of the great works that are on here.

There is the same discussion with golf, sailing, skiing, and a variety of other hobbies. Some people just want to try something and then move on. More power to them. It's a big world out there!
 
Cheers, 
 
Rick 

I found the email receipt for my Enterprise......2009!! There have been a lot of reasons why its taken so long; health, end of a relationship, a death, start of another relationship, work. The big one for me is I cant leave well enough alone and have to keep fiddling with things. Then there is that short attention span.
 
As far as why others fail to finish? I suspect there are as many reasons why builds and build logs are abandoned as there are builders; time, money (tools) skills, poor instructions, overestimation of how long it will take etc etc. Keeping up a build log takes time and effort. By the time I have taken and edited pictures, written a post, edited and re-edited (Gods of Spell Check I thank you) it could be an hour or more. thats an hour that could be spent building. I imagine some decide its more effort than it is worth to them.
 
When it comes to helping others pick a first build all we can do is give anecdotal advice and hope they listen. When they (ME?) dont then give as much advice and encouragement as possible. I know I most likely would not continued with out all the advice and encouragement I recieve(d)
 
Sam

Certainly there are many factors (time, ability, etc) that contribute to whether one will 'stick with' this hobby, and many of those can't be quantified until you get going.  But I do agree that the choice of kit can sometimes be a 'make or break' decision.
 
I really, really want to build the Syren.  But I think it is just a little beyond my reach at the moment, so I'm picking something else for my next build.
 
I'm still new to this - I picked up ship building about 9 months ago.  For my first build, I chose the Phantom - solid hull.  This meant no hull or deck planking, no square rigging, and no gunports or guns to build.  I chose it so that I could focus on basic skills - reading plans, cutting/sanding/shaping, and rigging.  I made a lot of mistakes.  For my second build, I'm building the Bluenose.  This adds basic POB stuff (keel, bulkheads, etc), hull and deck planking, more detail.  But I chose this particular ship because the hull is painted - my first attempt at hull planking is likely to turn out a little 'less than great', so I can learn hull planking but still use wood filler and paint to end up with a good build.
 
I was tempted to jump right into the Syren next (even had it in my shopping cart on the Model Expo site at one point), but I decided to do another build before I take that plunge, to get some experience with square rigging and gunports.
 
If you're getting into the hobby for the long haul, it doesn't hurt to spend some time working your way up.  You learn valuable skills that will pay off when you finally get to that 'big build'.  You also get a great sense of accomplishment from having successfully completed something (and that is much easier to reach with a 'beginner build').
 
All that being said, you have to be interested in the ship you are building.  It has to catch your eye.  If honestly nothing catches your eye except the Constitution, you might as well try.  Better to try something and have it fizzle out than to not try at all.  But if a first time builder is willing to start small, I do think it will pay off in the end.

Need to keep track of your methods, perhaps change my ways now. Working through some plans I have obtained for 542 Class LST's with the intent of a build, already I see problems developing with folder and file organization. Drawing in full scale using Traverse PC for COGO work and General Cad for drawing cleanup. Started with cad from downloaded plans, then added some plans I purchased from 'The Floating Drydock', did not like how this was progressing, but it was easy to produce an image that didn't look bad. I wanted more than line work, I wanted a Coordinate File using point numbers in a table form, although the coordinates were there in cad they were not in a format I liked or easy to extract. Dropped the cad for now and went to Traverce PC, a 2D surveying program I am familiar with. Few measurements on the plans and lacking some details, but enough to end up with some good coordinates for the hull to work with. No crown on LST's decks and they are built perpendicular and parallel except for the sloping bottom for beaching so bearing-bearing, bearing-distance and distance-distance intersections produce good missing points with their coordinates from a few known points and distances. Some details need to be rooted out from other sources, but I have plenty of data for now. Why am I doing it this way? I want the coordinates of the points, curve data and the ability to use the cross section routines in the program for frame shapes. I will take all into cad for fine tuning of the appearance, will also print patterns from cad. Planning on 1/72 scale, but I will be able to print at any scale, even full scale, if you provide the plotter.
Any suggestions or pointers are encouraged, this is my first attempt at this.
jud 

Thanks Jud. I hope there will not be need for herbicide. Quite enough we eat every day in food, even we do not want, aren't we?
 
Thx Piet. I faced with resolution issue ... 15 sec video clip recorded in HD resolution has more than 200MB. Tonight I made two more clips with details, but just had no patience to wait for them to upload to YT, even watching second time how Daeneris burned Mastet's ships ....
 
So, only photos of tonight progres
 

 

I think that the biggest problem is not just the complexity of the built but the time needed to invest. In my first two boats, on some days I could spent 7 hours building. Now, with work and familly commitments increasing I struggle to find any time at all and I am sure my current project will take years to complete. But it is a good idea to have a built log, I find it very motivating.  

Need to keep track of your methods, perhaps change my ways now. Working through some plans I have obtained for 542 Class LST's with the intent of a build, already I see problems developing with folder and file organization. Drawing in full scale using Traverse PC for COGO work and General Cad for drawing cleanup. Started with cad from downloaded plans, then added some plans I purchased from 'The Floating Drydock', did not like how this was progressing, but it was easy to produce an image that didn't look bad. I wanted more than line work, I wanted a Coordinate File using point numbers in a table form, although the coordinates were there in cad they were not in a format I liked or easy to extract. Dropped the cad for now and went to Traverce PC, a 2D surveying program I am familiar with. Few measurements on the plans and lacking some details, but enough to end up with some good coordinates for the hull to work with. No crown on LST's decks and they are built perpendicular and parallel except for the sloping bottom for beaching so bearing-bearing, bearing-distance and distance-distance intersections produce good missing points with their coordinates from a few known points and distances. Some details need to be rooted out from other sources, but I have plenty of data for now. Why am I doing it this way? I want the coordinates of the points, curve data and the ability to use the cross section routines in the program for frame shapes. I will take all into cad for fine tuning of the appearance, will also print patterns from cad. Planning on 1/72 scale, but I will be able to print at any scale, even full scale, if you provide the plotter.
Any suggestions or pointers are encouraged, this is my first attempt at this.
jud 

I think it is common among many (myself included), to get all enthusiastic about a new hobby, then; when the new-car-smell is gone, to loose interest. It is nothing to do with the hobby itself, just human nature.  Witness that boat sitting among the weeds in the back yard, or that guitar gathering dust in the corner (I am guilty of both, as well as others I can't recall at the moment).
 
Sometimes, you just have to try a bunch of different hobbies that strike your fancy, hoping you find one that sticks. One suggestion I would make- is to not make a build log on your first project, just read what others are doing, and ask questions.
 
Of course, I could be mistaken.
Skip

Jud,
 
You and Chris raise valid points.   There are those who start a build log, realize they're in way over their heads and give up.  There are others, who start a log, realize they're in way over their heads and the put that log on hold and get a simpler kit.    One of the topics over the years has been about the number of models, unfinished, sitting in an attic or basement because the builder didn't know how to do what was needed.   
 
There's two articles in the article database that explain "how to select a kit" and "what to expect in a kit".  They've been offered many time to new members.   Both articles have great advice.
 
Going from plastic to wood is a big step.  Similar to going from replacing some items on your car to building one from the ground up.   Same principles, just different skill set needed.
 
In my case, my first ship was Wasa (from Billings).  I opened the kit, read the directions such that they are, and put it away.  I went to the hobby shop and bought a simple battle station and AL's Scottish Maid.    I learned. It's humbling to realize you don't know how to do things.   When those two models wiere done, I did the Wasa.  
 
We here at MSW have also seen the same thing in scratchbuilding.  Look at the logs of models never finished.   Even the starters like the Triton cross-section.   
 
It's tough call on things in this hobby.   MSW is based on the premise that everyone wants everyone else to succeed also.  Mutual support.   Sometimes, the advice may seem harsh, but it's voices of experience that give it. And they give it in context of "how to learn".  Some new builders do carry on and turn out a nice model but they are usually reading other logs and listening to those who have built the model.  And most would tell you, they should have started with something easier.   
 
My apologies for being long winded.

This has always been a tough decision whit model building in general. My first ship build was the Constitution. It was Revell's plastic 1:96 scale kit. Granted I had been modeling for about 15 years at that point so I was not new to model building, nor complicated builds. I do admit though that there were times when I thought I had bit off more than I could chew with that kit. Even with the kits two piece hull and very good instructions, it is still a very daunting kit to someone who had never built a ship before and maybe more than I should have undertaken. That being said, it came out beautiful two years later and sits proudly in my dad's house as it was him I built it for.
 
Now that being said, I was not interested in building other ships at the time. That one was undertaken as a gift for my dad as he was not able to finish his model of the Constitution and it had become too badly damaged to salvage. Had I started building a simpler ship but without the motivation to build it other than "this looks fun" I may not have wanted to push through to completion when I hit those hard places. I learned a lot on that first build and every time I managed to struggle my way through to completion of a part I would (and still do) sit back and admire it for a long time. This is where my love of ship building was born. Seeing that majestic ship come together and knowing that I made that happen created a love of this hobby and filled that void that other models were not able to do.
 
I know my story is in the minority of first time ship builders. I also know that models are put on hold for many reasons other than burnout. My dad's had to stop because he had me, was going to college, working 2 jobs and then my mom died. He has built models since but never had the time to complete his Constitution before the ship got ruined. A friend of mine from the Navy has a great model railroad layout that never got completed since he was constantly getting deployed and now is getting ready to retire and move so he has to disassemble it. Just recently my own build has stopped as I found out last week my dog of 11 years has cancer, no way to fix it and we had to put him down yesterday. My wife and I are still devastated over this loss.
 
I think it is wise of us as a community of experienced builders to encourage first timers to choose easier kits as it is a shame to see so many unfinished builds out there. However, I do not think we should discourage them if they choose to take on a harder one to start. Instead, be sure to constantly follow their builds and try to offer help and suggestions on how to get through those tough areas when they are reached. We do not always know what outside circumstances may cause a build to stop.

Nenad
 
Ship looking good.
 
now this.
My yucca-war was successful ( for now). But grass ... this season grass grows rapidly every time when I look at it in yard !
 
Arrogant grass you have, at least mine waits until I turn my back. If mine flaunted it's independence so flagrantly, there might be a Monsanto Round Up.
jud
Having grown up on a Ranch about 18 miles from the Pendleton Round Up, the words round up create an image for me of a rough sport as well as a herbicide.

Knight heads: A closer inspection this morning revealed that the shipyard had erred too much on the side of caution not wanting to make them too short and had inturn made them too tall as Steve had rightly spotted.
 
After a series of careful sandings and measurement checks I think they should now be within a gnat's whisker of the right height, that's assuming I've got my measurements correct.
 
Cheers Dashi

Update:
 
Stanchions, bits, seats of easement and knight heads bashed and fitted according to the shipyards interpretation of the draughts and allowing for a shorter waist.
 
The stem:
 
To work out their positions I first fitted the fore tack bits for the cat heads to sit against. Then with cat heads dry fitted in position to the plan, I bashed the seats of easement to the 1771 draft and glued in place. Taking another look at Sydney Parkinson's sketch I now could just make out what I think might the boomkins running over the false rail up against the seats because of a difference in height of the false rail.
 
Tack Boomkins or bumpkins: After several failed attempts at seating them under the bowsprit as the kit plans and AOTS have I gave up and tried a different 'tack'. Influenced by HMS Victory I decided to try them stepped in the fore topsail sheet bits. Taking another look at the as fitted 1768 and 1771 draughts I noticed attached to the fore part of the sheet bits an extra thickness which gave the wood needed to step or seat their heals here. Also I was having trouble using the square bumpkins provided in the kit so made some replacements out of bamboo skewers. With them in this new position I took a Sydney Parkinson shot. Don't know if I've got it right but am happy with that.
 
Knight heads: I took one look at the kit ones and put them aside to bash replacements. The top block is dry fitted and held in place by pins and eye bolts and drilled with fairlead holes so I don't think I'll need the fairlead saddle which then will allow the jib boom to run in further if that makes sense.
 
Cheers Dashi

Nenad
 
Ship looking good.
 
now this.
My yucca-war was successful ( for now). But grass ... this season grass grows rapidly every time when I look at it in yard !
 
Arrogant grass you have, at least mine waits until I turn my back. If mine flaunted it's independence so flagrantly, there might be a Monsanto Round Up.
jud
Having grown up on a Ranch about 18 miles from the Pendleton Round Up, the words round up create an image for me of a rough sport as well as a herbicide.

Nenad
 
Ship looking good.
 
now this.
My yucca-war was successful ( for now). But grass ... this season grass grows rapidly every time when I look at it in yard !
 
Arrogant grass you have, at least mine waits until I turn my back. If mine flaunted it's independence so flagrantly, there might be a Monsanto Round Up.
jud
Having grown up on a Ranch about 18 miles from the Pendleton Round Up, the words round up create an image for me of a rough sport as well as a herbicide.

Thank you for the correction :-)
 
XXXDan

I'm impressed...Nedad.  Following you from the beginning and watching you make mistakes..correct.....change....modify....again and again as you perfected the model and your skills.  Very mice indeed.
 
Rob

I worked on this a bit today, and it seems to me the rigid divider approach was incorrect..I instead determined the bulkhead width at the deck, the height of the bulkhead relative to the keel both at the keel and the deck, then drew lines that I saw as fair..I will cut some 1/16 ply wood and see how this goes..

I'm currently restoring one of those kits for a local museum and am using a set of plans from 1964 - the scale
indicated on the plans is 1/96...hope that helps!
 
Cheers

Built mine in 72, don't remember. Seems like it was about 2 feet long. The the length of the ship and model are the numbers to crunch to find out.
jud
 
looked up a length of 212' long, using your 24", I came up with 1/106, that seems like an odd number to me. Could be the 212' is hull and your 24" is overall.

Thanks so much for responding.

Built mine in 72, don't remember. Seems like it was about 2 feet long. The the length of the ship and model are the numbers to crunch to find out.
jud
 
looked up a length of 212' long, using your 24", I came up with 1/106, that seems like an odd number to me. Could be the 212' is hull and your 24" is overall.

Unlikely that the glue is causing your problem, I suspect that it is a temperature or moisture change. Cause, wood not cured, sawed but not sized after curing or you are adding moisture as a bending aid. Don't sand anything until you find out why you are having this problem, sand it now to fit, and the wood dries further it will shrink, your sanded to match high planks will become the low ones.
jud

About half the time that I use a clove hitch, I can tie it and throw it over the end of something, or to make a temporary halter from a rope by twisting the large loops around each other once and adjusting to fit, a half hitch once on will keep it in place if you expect a storm. learned that from an old cowboy when I was a kid and he had me tying the clove hitch using two hands without using the ends of the rope. Lay the rope over your right hand holding with your thumb, palm up. Left hand, palm down, thumb pointing away from the body, holding the rope so it runs under the left thumb straight out to the right through the right hand. Now twist both hands counter clock wise and lay the loops together and you have a clove hitch, The crossings will be down, but playing with the constrictor knot discovered that you can turn the crossings of the clove hitch up, then tuck the end coming out to the right under the inside loop, closest to the body clove hitch loop, and turn it into a constrictor. Once the movements become automatic in taking a hold of the rope so you can twist counter clock wise, tying the clove hitch and the constrictor can be done quickly. Now I need to find a way to tie the constrictor around  a pole or ring.
jud