jud

That photo inside the hull looks a lot like the inside of the hull of the Star of India the first time I was allowed in there, collision bulkhead was in place and the rest empty except for the Iron fresh water tank hanging from the overhead. The Star had a lot more rust and trash in there then, which was later cleaned out. My experience being in compartmentalized ships at that time, the open hull seemed huge as did the inner hull of a lumber schooner I was aboard in San Francisco. I like to see these of vessels restored, those with first hand memory's of the old folks talking about these ships are now gone, the only thing left of an era are the bones and some items like the old cheese safe we have in the family that arrived on the West coast aboard a Bark that had went around the Horn, it still smells of cheese.
jud

I am a huge knot nerd, I can't get enough knots. But, in ship modeling you do not need to have encyclopedic knot knowledge. The simple Overhand Knot - the one you use to begin tying your shoes, the one that goes on before the two "bows", -will get you through nearly every model rigging job. Very few knots on a ship are large enough to be discernible at any scale so it won't matter if you use the Overhand Knot to represent ALL the specialty knots found on an actual ship. Possible exceptions would be the Fishermans Bend (and near cousins) and Clove Hitch often found on the anchor. And this only because the anchor cable is so thick. Some knots are have properties that make them superior for certain tasks at any scale and the Clove Hitch is probably the second knot you should use on a model, after the Overhand Knot. Clove Hitches are easy to tie and are used on the ratlines on the shrouds ( so you may wind up tying hundreds of them on your model) but they are also THE BEST knot for tying a line to any cylindrical object, at any scale. Finally I will put in a plug for the Constrictor Knot, which I think is the third indispensable knot to know. Its very similar to the Clove Hitch but holds so tight it never loosens once tightened. This becomes very useful in ship model building.

Worn cowboy boots all my life because of those shoe knots. ' http://www.animatedknots.com/knotlist.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com', is one of many sites on the net dedicated to teach how to tie knots, also many books are out there, I have many of them that I have obtained over the years, think the first one was my dads Boy Scout Manual, won't dig it out, but I think it is the 1923 model. You may feel intimidated with knots, get yourself a  4 foot +/- piece of cotton rope, a book or computer site and start learning how to tie the knots you hear mentioned on this site, not that many of them. You won't be needing a Mathew Walker knot, masthead knot or need to learn how to tie a bowline in the center of a line, that is one I use regularly, either that one or a truckers hitch used like a block and tackle to tighten up load holding ropes.  Today handling rope or line and the knots needed is not part of everyone's life, so you will need to practice, heck you might become one of the few people in the world that knows how to handle a lawn hose without kinking it up, it's just like a stiff rope, the same rules apply. Get started, it can be fun and creating decorative but useful items from rope or lacing using knots and hitches can become a fun hobby by itself. Never know when you will need to know how to use a clove hitch to make a quick halter so you can lead a loose horse home.
jud

If you really want to be something of a purist about rigging, very very few "knots" are used in actual rigging practice.  The few that I can think of immediately include the matthew walker knot, the manrope knot, the tack knot, and the spritsail sheet knot.
 
Everything else on the ship are hitches, bends, splices, seizings, and lashings.  Each performs very differently from what is traditionally called a knot and share an important difference.  A knot, once tied is relatively permanent.  The others, although very secure, can easily be un-tied.  Remember, a ships rig is a working system with parts needing to be unrigged and shifted easily and sometimes with a moments notice.
 
Depending on how detailed you want to make your model rigging, it may be to your advantage to learn a few of these ways to fasten ropes to various objects.
 
Regards,

Worn cowboy boots all my life because of those shoe knots. ' http://www.animatedknots.com/knotlist.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com', is one of many sites on the net dedicated to teach how to tie knots, also many books are out there, I have many of them that I have obtained over the years, think the first one was my dads Boy Scout Manual, won't dig it out, but I think it is the 1923 model. You may feel intimidated with knots, get yourself a  4 foot +/- piece of cotton rope, a book or computer site and start learning how to tie the knots you hear mentioned on this site, not that many of them. You won't be needing a Mathew Walker knot, masthead knot or need to learn how to tie a bowline in the center of a line, that is one I use regularly, either that one or a truckers hitch used like a block and tackle to tighten up load holding ropes.  Today handling rope or line and the knots needed is not part of everyone's life, so you will need to practice, heck you might become one of the few people in the world that knows how to handle a lawn hose without kinking it up, it's just like a stiff rope, the same rules apply. Get started, it can be fun and creating decorative but useful items from rope or lacing using knots and hitches can become a fun hobby by itself. Never know when you will need to know how to use a clove hitch to make a quick halter so you can lead a loose horse home.
jud

Worn cowboy boots all my life because of those shoe knots. ' http://www.animatedknots.com/knotlist.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com', is one of many sites on the net dedicated to teach how to tie knots, also many books are out there, I have many of them that I have obtained over the years, think the first one was my dads Boy Scout Manual, won't dig it out, but I think it is the 1923 model. You may feel intimidated with knots, get yourself a  4 foot +/- piece of cotton rope, a book or computer site and start learning how to tie the knots you hear mentioned on this site, not that many of them. You won't be needing a Mathew Walker knot, masthead knot or need to learn how to tie a bowline in the center of a line, that is one I use regularly, either that one or a truckers hitch used like a block and tackle to tighten up load holding ropes.  Today handling rope or line and the knots needed is not part of everyone's life, so you will need to practice, heck you might become one of the few people in the world that knows how to handle a lawn hose without kinking it up, it's just like a stiff rope, the same rules apply. Get started, it can be fun and creating decorative but useful items from rope or lacing using knots and hitches can become a fun hobby by itself. Never know when you will need to know how to use a clove hitch to make a quick halter so you can lead a loose horse home.
jud

Worn cowboy boots all my life because of those shoe knots. ' http://www.animatedknots.com/knotlist.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com', is one of many sites on the net dedicated to teach how to tie knots, also many books are out there, I have many of them that I have obtained over the years, think the first one was my dads Boy Scout Manual, won't dig it out, but I think it is the 1923 model. You may feel intimidated with knots, get yourself a  4 foot +/- piece of cotton rope, a book or computer site and start learning how to tie the knots you hear mentioned on this site, not that many of them. You won't be needing a Mathew Walker knot, masthead knot or need to learn how to tie a bowline in the center of a line, that is one I use regularly, either that one or a truckers hitch used like a block and tackle to tighten up load holding ropes.  Today handling rope or line and the knots needed is not part of everyone's life, so you will need to practice, heck you might become one of the few people in the world that knows how to handle a lawn hose without kinking it up, it's just like a stiff rope, the same rules apply. Get started, it can be fun and creating decorative but useful items from rope or lacing using knots and hitches can become a fun hobby by itself. Never know when you will need to know how to use a clove hitch to make a quick halter so you can lead a loose horse home.
jud

Stage No 3.
 
 

 

Robin and Jud,
I do not really know what color the glass was on the 1770's Endeavour for sure. Can either point to a definitive source. ?
I did a bit of looking about to when navigational lighting on ships came into effect.
Establishment of British legislationIn 1840 appeared the first rules on lights and traffic at sea.
The 19th century also saw the first regulations on navigation at sea. Around 1840, with the earliest steamships, a number of nations became concerned about what steps could be taken to avoid collisions and shipwrecks. At the time, each of them acted separately. No ships carried navigation lights, except warships travelling in squadron by night. Whenever two vessels approached each other, it was customary to show one's presence by hoisting a flag or lighting a flare. British ships applied the signalling rules proposed by W.D, Evans, regarded as the father of present-day regulations. Source: http://www.imo.org/en/KnowledgeCentre/ReferencesAndArchives/HistoryofSafetyatSea/Documents/P.%20Boisson%20History%20of%20safet%20at%20sea%20extract.htm#_Toc516043734
 
 
Red usually means danger, if I was riding up to red light at night at sea, I'd be watching out close to see what it was or keep clear.
 
 
Dave R

First I think before dismissing this out of hand we to need review draught zaz6591 of the cabin or orlop deck which you provided and which omits the hole for the mizzen standing mast as I think it raises some interesting questions that need answering. To do this and in the interests of clarity I will attempt to list some of the main points that have been raised in this discussion and possible relationships between them.
 
Point 1 : Draught zaz6691 raises the question that the mizzen was stepped in the orlop deck if Waynes 'no hole' argument is true. 
 
Point 2: Wayne you made the argument that you didn't think the shipwrights would have made mistakes. I'd like to agree with this but the evidence you have provided in draught zaz6691 might not support this argument.
 
Point 3: Draught zaz6594 of the 1771 deck plan provide by Wayne along with other deck draughts disagree with draught zaz6691 and show holes through all the decks for the mizzen.
 
Point 4: Point 3 supports the argument that the missing mizzen hole in draught zaz6691 is in fact very likely a draughting error. If there is no other supporting evidence for the theory of the deck holes or lack of them for determining mast steps on plans then this argument needs to be discounted. 
 
Point 5: Point 4 negates points 1 and 2. 
 
Point 6: The last painting Wayne provided has no reference date or who it is by or what ship it is and so can't be verified as evidence for this discussion.
 
Point 7: Parkinsons sketchs clearly show a taller mizzen inline with contemporary ship building measurements wayne has provided and the shrouds all appear very close at the same angle from their respective channels.
 
Point 8: Steves AL model because of the lower mizzen and the replica Endeavour also because of the lower mizzen have the mizzen shrouds at a lower angle compared to the fore and main shrouds.
 
Point 9: Point 7 negates point 8.
 
Point 10:Wayne in your last post your provided evidence with a link in which it clearly gives two formula for working out the length of the mizzen. If the mizzen is to be stepped on deck then it is to be 2/3 the length of the main mast and if it is to be stepped in the hold then 3/4 the length of the main mast.
 
Point 11: The formula in point 10 is further supporting evidence for the practice of both deck stepped mizzens from at least 1761. Which deck they are referring to it doesn't say. It is proof that other formula were used which isn't in dispute. Working backward none of these formulas appear to support the Woolwich Yard measurements with the exception of a formula  in Steel's compilation which is not listed here and came 30 years later. 
 
Point 12: Druxey worked out the mizzen height from it's diameter which came to 60' which matches one of steel's formula. Referencing points10 and 11 suggests that this is the length if it were stepped in the hold and makes it 10' taller than the Woolwich Yard measurement of 50',5" which it would be if stepped in the lower deck. It would need to keep the diameter proportional to the longer mast of 60' because the stresses from the quarterdeck partners would still be the same regardless of whether hold or lower deck stepped.
 
In conclusion: I feel like we have exhausted all the evidence there is. After careful consideration the theory of a deck stepped mizzen is supported and does explain the Woolwich yard measurements using a formula from Steel's compilation of 30 years later as I originally posited. This is not conclusive but it is valid. Secondly the question of the foremast length: After further research I think the Woolwich yard measurements are ok here, but that it is still possible that there has been an error.
 
As far as I'm concerned this discussion has answered my questions, I really appreciate the efforts of everyone who took the time to provide valid evidence and their respective points of view. Nothing is conclusive and we are each entitled to our own conclusions and points of view so with that in mind I'd like to thank everyone as I have learned a lot that I can now use on my build of the HMB Endeavour. 

Need to get over the habit of chewing on that work board, when doing that kind of fabrication, looks like you have chewed about 80 mm off already and will need a replacement board soon.
You have made some very nice Dead Eyes Nenad, few who started where you did with this project would have had the patience and fortitude to develop the skills and knowledge gain from research now shown in your work.
jud

Need to get over the habit of chewing on that work board, when doing that kind of fabrication, looks like you have chewed about 80 mm off already and will need a replacement board soon.
You have made some very nice Dead Eyes Nenad, few who started where you did with this project would have had the patience and fortitude to develop the skills and knowledge gain from research now shown in your work.
jud

Need to get over the habit of chewing on that work board, when doing that kind of fabrication, looks like you have chewed about 80 mm off already and will need a replacement board soon.
You have made some very nice Dead Eyes Nenad, few who started where you did with this project would have had the patience and fortitude to develop the skills and knowledge gain from research now shown in your work.
jud

Need to get over the habit of chewing on that work board, when doing that kind of fabrication, looks like you have chewed about 80 mm off already and will need a replacement board soon.
You have made some very nice Dead Eyes Nenad, few who started where you did with this project would have had the patience and fortitude to develop the skills and knowledge gain from research now shown in your work.
jud

robin b; never made any claim that it was common practice for red glass in such lights. It does make sense to me for the glass to be red because of experience on ships at sea at night. I know what white light does to night vision and without radar, ears and eyes is all you have to keep out of trouble.
jud

Looks like a normal door with high comings and extended door frames, kind of like a hatch that could be secured for sea, doorway made water tight by covering with a cover secured with bands and wedges only when needed. It might be a slider, have seen them used for doors into wheel houses from the rear, never on the side or front. Aboard a troller tied up in Sitka in 65 and heard a large boom and felt some shaking, got into the wheelhouse quick enough to see everything that went up, coming down. The boat ahead of us about 50 feet was powered with a gas engine and had developed a drip-drip leak in the fuel line, Skipper left the boat to find some repair parts and slid his sliding door closed and the drip kept dripping, building fumes because the boat was closed up, when that sliding door was opened, the fuel-air proportions were correct for an explosion, blew the deck and wheel house off as a unit, the planks were blown from the ribs. Skipper was stripped, thrown over the stern, other than shaken up with light burns, was uninjured. Summer of 65, probably could look it up in the local paper for details. Does not solve the question of type of door for you but does provide a story centered around drips and a sliding door.
jud

Thanks to everyone for joining in on the fun and your likes.
 
Yes Igor I know about the glass  of these light bulbs.  I'll be extra careful.
The wood for the topsail schooner hull will be from cherry, solid.  No frames and planking, not at this scale.  The base is poplar and I thought of making the round works (masts, spars and bowsprit) from maple but as the work progressed things didn't work out that way.  You'll see as this log gets underway. 
That's the problem with doing a build log after the fact, when part of the work is already done.
 
Captain Bob, yes, that was also my thinking at first to take the easy way out as a last resort.  However, I  first wanted to try and make everything myself as a true scratch build, including cutting a lamp bulb to fit the base.  This project was meant to be my challenge and to improve my physiology.
 
The next post we'll go into the nitty gritty and show the trials and errors I encountered.  The first thing I wanted to see if I could carve a good enough looking hull at 14 mm length to look like a schooner.  That first attempt I'll share with yuns next time.
 
Cheers, 

I filled in the forward bulwark behind the bowsprit  in prep for the manger enclosure. It doesn't look like much right now. It still needs sanding and painting.
 

 
I still find myself wishing I had thickened these bulwarks at the outset.
 
 
 
I have been thinking about how to eliminate or minimize that last seam between the middle and aft spar deck sections. After a dry fit it is obvious that a misalignment is present between the sections (they are pretty roughed up from time off ship as well), In fact it is 0.00mm starboard and 0.85mm port. Since I do not have to worry about the fit of the beams in the forward section (at least not worry about 0.85mm) I am going to plane the aft spar deck section to match the mid-section. Then I will trim the alignment pin from the underside of the middle spar deck section and slide it 0.85mm aftward to abut against the planed aft section. I should be able to achieve a fairly close fit and work the seam into the deck much better. Since the main mast rake won't like the shift of even that small an amount I will expand the deck hole and shape mast partners to fit over and into the Revell molding. I had planned to do that anyway for all of the masts to ensure the proper rake.
 
So..it is a plan...
 

Many conversion tables and charts available today. I use my HP 48GX to convert using the values I have in my head for the units I find myself using, not there, I know where to find a table. The trick is to know the definition of the units you are using, but then, most will be fine without knowing the fine details found in definitions.
jud

Many conversion tables and charts available today. I use my HP 48GX to convert using the values I have in my head for the units I find myself using, not there, I know where to find a table. The trick is to know the definition of the units you are using, but then, most will be fine without knowing the fine details found in definitions.
jud

Until the adoption of the metric system throughout (continental) Europe in the last quarter of the 19th century, every major city had its own 'foot'. One has to pay attention when using old books and drawings to verify which 'foot' was actually used. The location of publishing or the nationality of the writer does not necessariyl mean that the respective foot was used. I remember preparing a drawing for a model from an 1860s book published in Hamburg and naively assuming that Hamburg Feet were used - when everything was ready, I discovered the small-print saying, that the author used Imperial measures (probably to be make things easier for international readers).

Very good reason not to be in workshop tonight
 
In the frame of Europian "long night museum", tonight was 13th Belgrade's Museum night on 70 locations spreaded in downtown. I never missed this event, wonderfull ambience and feeling on streets, that evening full of very nice people, and with many interesting places and things to see. Six hours of walking and visiting Kalemegdan (Belgrade fortres), museums and exibitions. There is no way to see it all, so I created my own route, with resting places in Belgrafe's pubs or between ice-cream shops ( huh ... Blak chocolate with Rochero ferrer ice cream, nuts over ...)
 
Found something interesting in Millitary museum to show here, from XIX century, unknow war ship drown in Danube
 

robin b; A red light will not destroy your night vision, a white light will. Navigation lights are red, green and white today. Red can be seen in the dark from outboard, sometimes better than a dim white light in some conditions. Think red may be the proper color, that red light would illuminate the quarterdeck without destroying night vision and would be a good non-blinding reference point for anyone on deck. At night while below decks after taps, the lights were red, we did use white spotlights at night on the Harnett County after we had 3 mines attached to us by swimmers. Those lights were scanning with an armed sailor with orders to shoot anything in the water that could conceal a swimmer or mine, it was watch, see, shoot and watch. didn't ask for permission to fire. One swimmer done in with a grenade and another shot while using a log to hide him.
jud

robin b; A red light will not destroy your night vision, a white light will. Navigation lights are red, green and white today. Red can be seen in the dark from outboard, sometimes better than a dim white light in some conditions. Think red may be the proper color, that red light would illuminate the quarterdeck without destroying night vision and would be a good non-blinding reference point for anyone on deck. At night while below decks after taps, the lights were red, we did use white spotlights at night on the Harnett County after we had 3 mines attached to us by swimmers. Those lights were scanning with an armed sailor with orders to shoot anything in the water that could conceal a swimmer or mine, it was watch, see, shoot and watch. didn't ask for permission to fire. One swimmer done in with a grenade and another shot while using a log to hide him.
jud

Lovely work Denis.
 
We have to be good to our keyboards, and to feed them from time to time. My keyboard likes coffee. Real coffyboard