USS ST LOUIS by thorn21g - 1:24 - POF - Civil War Ironclad - Gateway Model Shipcrafter's Guild

[BANYAN]

Hi John, the method you described in our crossed posts is similar to what I think was used in Victoria.  In my case, there were a couple of access hatches used and portable cranes used for ash removal.  The use of the chutes and wheelbarrow on the upper deck was deduced from info I found online (I'll send a PM).  The use of portable cranes for ash removal was stated in the ship's contract.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[BANYAN]

Hi John, have sent you two PMs with the info I have.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[johnhoward]

Pat, 

Thankyou very much for your excellent research. I've sent you an answer to your PM, and I'd really appreciate it if you would share a summary of your findings with the Forum followers.

 

JOHNHOWARD

[johnhoward]

"Slag & Ash Removal on Coal Fired Ironclads" with Firerooms Located Deep in their Hull such as the USS Cairo and USS St. Louis

 

For those of us who have been following our search for an answer to this question since about 2017, I think Pat has really "Nailed it" by finding the attached document:

"No 1866" entitled "ASH HANDLING" which was presented at the Annual Meeting, New York, December 4 to 7, 1922 of "The American Society 0f Mechanical Engineers."     

(Specifically refer to the sections highlighted in yellow and in particular: Paragraph 6 under MARINE PRACTICE.)

 

I am extremely indebted to "Pat" for his excellent research effort in finding this document and all the numerous  others he has provided regarding "coaling operations" in the late 19th Century, which after a more thorough review, may change some of the earlier modeling decisions we reached on coaling the "USS St. Louis" Ironclad. .

However,I am now totally convinced that the attached document fully confirms the method of "slag & ash removal via a bucket hoisted thru the ventilation funnels in the fire-room, onto the Hurricane Deck, transportation to the lee side deck edge via wheelbarrow and down over the upper casement armor plating in a metal chute, into the river."  (This was referred to as the "OLD WAY" in paragraph 6.)

 

Thanks again, Pat,

JOHNHOWARD 

[mbp521]

Johnhoward, what great information! This definitely clears up the nonexistence of the hatches over the fire room. Thank you so much Pat. 

 

I’m still trying to dig up more information on the hatchways between the hog chain supports, but I am almost convinced that the aft ventilation funnels on Cairo were located inboard of the hog chain supports and not outboard like the plans show. I’ve even gone so far as to set up my camera at the similar angle as the original photograph and located the funnels where they are in the photograph in relation to the supports and chimneys and they definitely look to inboard. I’ve still got some playing around to do with this, but I should have some resolution soon. 
 

-Brian

[BANYAN]

Glad to hear the info was of use.  I am sorry that I was not able to provide a summary of all the info I had collected here myself, but 'life' is getting in the way at the moment.  Thanks John for posting this.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[johnhoward]

Brian & Pat,

Thanks for all the help. I'm pretty sure that the aft ventilation funnels were intended to service the engine room. I think we had to relocate them from Ashley's drawing because they went directly into a wall or doorway on the gun deck. This is not too surprising because he probably only had old photos to determine funnel locations since the Hurricane deck didn't survive the USS Cairo recovery.

The next mystery I'm going to reinvestigate is the Auxiliary Steam Engine and PTO Shaft , depicted on Ashley's HSR Sheet 28 drawing, and located in the chine, and which I suspect was used, as we modeled it on our USS St. Louis, to power the capstan. It may also have powered high pressure water pumps, which were specified in the HSR, but which I have never located.

In 2014, I questioned Elizabeth Joyner, USS Cairo Museum Curator, about this Auxiliary Steam Engine, and she recalled that :"they actually found it in the wreckage, but lost it during recovery",so Ashley's drawing records it "as location Unknown", and his drawing of it seems to come from the US National Archives, but I was never able to confirm this. I think Ashley's drawing is probably reliable because the outline he shows of the chine is unique to the "City Class" ironclads. I have never seen this on any other USS Cairo models but it would be hidden below the gun deck and behind upper and lower chine armor plates.

We'll need some help on this one!

 

JOHNHOWARD

 

 

 

 

[timboni]

O, here we go! These are from November of 2019. Unless otherwise indicated, photos and captions are by Bill Kammermeyer.

 

                   

Covering the underside of the waterway        The open and closed portions of the            Waterway finished                          

                                                                                       waterway masked for painting

        

Hull on 45-degree angle lift to facilitate easier access by Tim and Vince in               Final fitting aft casement

painting the ceiling inside the walls of the sides.

 

   

Final fitting forward casement

 

OK, I'm going to post these pictures to see if they come through. Next series is of making the cannon barrels and trunnions. Back soon.

 

Tim

[timboni]

Again from April 2019, making cannons. Pictures and captions by Bill Kammermeyer

 

                  

Trunnion Drilling Jig                                           "Slugs" on lathe with pattern below it that was under the barrel exactly in line with the end of the                                                                                         pattern. Rough plugcuts are ade to pattern limits and then removed to get a smoother surface.

 

   

Same, closer to the final contour.                                                                  After cannons are turned, they are given a coat of varnish and sanded                                                                                                                                            again on the lathe. Here, they are drying with ends still attached.

 

                                                 

42-pounders showing what a great job a duplicator               A test fit in the custom-made carriages for each type of cannon. The 32-pounders 

can do, with a little practice. Here with trunnions                  needed to have inside-of-trunnion area of the carriage reduced for a proper fit.

inserted and laying in carriages. All the trunnions

for all the sizes of cannons are the same size,

which makes for a lot less work.

 

                                                                                     

Hole for breech rope drilled in cascabel with hole for removable                    Detail of the flat taper of the cascabel, before and after. Untapered

plug so breech rope can easily slide into the hole for the back.                       cascabel on jig, coarse file used for tapering below.

 

    

All cannons are primed with petroleum-based primer using dowels to    Primed cannons are handheld to paint the distal end of the barrel

let them dry without marks.                                                                                   and the bore and then placed in large holes to dry upright.

 

                                           
When the barrels were dry, dowels were used to flip and hold them                      Detail of painted finish on cannons. It's hard to believe that while the breech end was air-brushed with acrylic flat black paint.                        this is turned wood and not cast metal. I was pleased with

A wonderful finish was produced.                                                                                       the end result.

 

 

OK, that's all for now. Apologies for inconsistencies in picture sizes and some fuzziness. Still learning this stuff. More on cannons and carriages, placement on the boat, and the doctor Engine next time. 

 

Tim

 

 

[timboni]

Again apologies for the "three sizes of picture" of the cannon barrels. Somehow can't get rid of 'em. We'll do better next time.

[mbp521]

Tim,

 

I’m loving these updates! What a wonderful job you guys did on the canons. You would never know they were wood from the way they were painted. 
 

-Brian

[Louie da fly]

2 hours ago, timboni said:

Again apologies for the "three sizes of picture" of the cannon barrels. Somehow can't get rid of 'em. We'll do better next time.

 

Edit your post, and you'll find that at the bottom of your post - not in the text but in the section at the bottom, from which you click on photos to put them in the text, there are three photos that you didn't click on for inserting into the text - i.e. unused photos. Delete those from there, and they'll vanish from the post. I had trouble with this time and time again till I found the solution.

 

Steven

[johnhoward]

Tim,

Regarding the caption requiring a "special fit" for Bill's 32 pounder carriage, I believe he is referring to his 30-Pounder Parrott Rifle barrel which requires a standard 18 pounder Naval Carriage and an elevating screw-jack rather than the 32 pounder (or small) carriage and wedge type quoin as incorrectly depicted on the Doug Ashleys NPS drawing. 

Great job on the photos.

 

JOHNHOWARD

 

 

[timboni]

On 4/10/2022 at 4:23 PM, timboni said:

Again from April 2019, making cannons. Pictures and captions by Bill Kammermeyer

 

                  

Trunnion Drilling Jig                                           "Slugs" on lathe with pattern below it that was under the barrel exactly in line with the end of the                                                                                         pattern. Rough plugcuts are ade to pattern limits and then removed to get a smoother surface.

 

   

Same, closer to the final contour.                                                                  After cannons are turned, they are given a coat of varnish and sanded                                                                                                                                            again on the lathe. Here, they are drying with ends still attached.

 

                                                 

42-pounders showing what a great job a duplicator               A test fit in the custom-made carriages for each type of cannon. The 32-pounders 

can do, with a little practice. Here with trunnions                  needed to have inside-of-trunnion area of the carriage reduced for a proper fit.

inserted and laying in carriages. All the trunnions

for all the sizes of cannons are the same size,

which makes for a lot less work.

 

                                                                                     

Hole for breech rope drilled in cascabel with hole for removable                    Detail of the flat taper of the cascabel, before and after. Untapered

plug so breech rope can easily slide into the hole for the back.                       cascabel on jig, coarse file used for tapering below.

 

    

All cannons are primed with petroleum-based primer using dowels to    Primed cannons are handheld to paint the distal end of the barrel

let them dry without marks.                                                                                   and the bore and then placed in large holes to dry upright.

 

                                           
When the barrels were dry, dowels were used to flip and hold them                      Detail of painted finish on cannons. It's hard to believe that while the breech end was air-brushed with acrylic flat black paint.                        this is turned wood and not cast metal. I was pleased with

A wonderful finish was produced.                                                                                       the end result.

 

 

OK, that's all for now. Apologies for inconsistencies in picture sizes and some fuzziness. Still learning this stuff. More on cannons and carriages, placement on the boat, and the doctor Engine next time. 

 

Tim

 

 

 

 

 

 

[timboni]

Got it! Thanks, Stephen, for your guidance in getting rid of unwanted pictures. I'm sure I'll use it many times over.

[timboni]

OK, more cannon pictures!

 

                                      

Lugs cut to consistent size on my mini chop saw.                         Turning elevation lugs for 42 pounder and 8" cannon on lathe. Finished lugs to the left of the                                                                                                                      cutting tool on the lathe.

 

Next time, pictures of rudder mechanism and Doctor Engine!

                    

Lugs being tapped with 4/40 threads.                                                                        The hull is canted to a 45-degree angle with the use of angled supports while

                                                                                                                                        the portside ceiling is added around the open sections of the casement. (sorry                                                                                                                                                for the small picture)

    

Breech rope guides, as well as nuts and bolts for carriages.

 

   

Elevation wedges for 32-pounders. Green wedges for greater suppression      Detail of elevation wedges.

of muzzle.

 

                

Scale (1/24) man next to 32-pounder.                                                                               Cannon in place looking at port side of gunboat.

 

          

(again apologies for small size of picture and pixillation)

Cannons in place looking at starboard side of gunboat.

Note racks filled with rolled/folded hammocks on hurricane deck.

 

[timboni]

OK, a few more pictures before we go on to the next group. And keep in mind that our progress and meetings were very uneven due to the Pandemic. here we go!

 

                                        

Waterline masked befoe painting back portion of the hull.         Painted rudders and steering assemblies in place. Parrot rifles on carriages for another test fit.

 

          

Cord from dot on rear casement (out of picture)to roller to second roller and             Detail of cams and drive linkage on the  paddle wheel shat.

then to tiller. The cord will be chain on the finished model.

 

                                                                                         

Dr. Mike Orgel and Bob Keeler work to set up drive rods                               Steam engine in place with Pitman arm and drive linkage for paddle wheel.

and cams off the Pitman arms.

 

           

Doctor Engine parts soldered together (N.B. Parts and assembly by                   Doctor Engine and condensing tanks primed with petroleum-based primer.

Howie Smith)

 

              

Doctor Engine painted fat back as a base. Cylinders and pumps will be painted a dark

green along with frame as was frequently the custom for steam engines at the time.

 

All right, next installment in a few days. Please to enjoy.

 

[mbp521]

Tim,  

 

Stunning work by the entire group. I am so glad that you are posting these. Thank you!

 

-Brian

[johnhoward]

Tim,

The two large tanks above the "Doctor" Auxiliary Steam Engine are not "condensing tanks", but are "pre-heaters" for river intake water, utilizing main engine exhaust gases, before pumping it into the mud drums and eventually into the boilers to maintain safe water levels. The main engine exhaust gases from the pre-heaters are then either routed to the wheelhouse to prevent paddlewheel freezing in the winter, or back to the main exhaust smokestacks.

 

JOHNHOWARD

[BANYAN]

hi John, ditto comments above - congrats to the team; the project is coming along very nicely and the additional detail in the photos is great to see.  You have me somewhat confused though with the naming of the aux boiler.  I am more familiar with that being the 'Donkey' boiler; not saying 'Doctor' is wrong, just wondering how you arrived at that name?  Enquiring minds and all  

 

cheers

 

Pat

[johnhoward]

Hi again Pat,

The difference between a "Doctor" and a "Donkey" is that a "Doctor" does not produce steam itself since it doesn't have its own firebox & boiler whereas a "Donkey Engine" does, and creates its own steam. The "Doctor" got its name because it automatically reduced the high number of accidental steamboat boiler explosions which resulted from low water levels in their boilers. The schematic drawing reflects corrections to the NPS version  for "Doctors", highlighted in yellow, as used on "City Class Ironclads". 

 

 

JOHNHOWARD

 

 

 

 

 

[BANYAN]

John, many thanks for the explanation; I have learned something very interesting today.  Appreciated.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[timboni]

OK, these pictures are from January of 2019. Going to post a couple of them to test if they get saved. Unless otherwise note, pictures and captions are by bill Kammermeyer. Apologies for the graininess of some of these photos.

 

                                                            

A new and improved method for cutting the armor plates in a                          Using a hacksaw blade with a knife edge blade in a first cut slot,

consistent width and depth using a flush cutting tool mounted in an               the adjustable fence allows the next repetitive cut. The elevation screws

elevating jig.                                                                                                             keep it at just a few thousandths of an inch deep. Fast and accurate!

 

 

 

 

 

[timboni]

Well, it looks like those photos will work fine. Again, apologies for the graininess, but hopefully the pictures will give the general idea. Still from January, 2020:

 

                                                                 

              Armor for front casement cut, fit, glued and clamped in place. Glue was allowed to dry overnight with clamps.

 

                                                                     

With gun ports and cutaway cut and filed to shape. The short side                            A close-up of the texture of the Formica armor which shows up

pieces were added and clamped with tape until the glue is dry.                                  much better when primed and painted flat black. This texture will have

The chain pipe holes were cut to shape.                                                                         a very nice effect on the scored armor plates.

 

                                                      

32 pounder cannon implement rack made by Tim that will attach to                                             Parrot Cannon implement rack by Tim.

the interior casement walls.

 

                                                                    

        45-degree setup on drill press to drill elliptical holes in armor plate                        This is how you drill an elliptical hole with a round bit so that                     

        that goes around the forward chain pipes.                                                                   the angles chain pipe fits in a snug fashion. These plates will be cut in a                                                                                                                                                        rectangle a bit larger than the chain pipe and fit into a recess in the armor                                                                                                                                                      on the casement.

 

OK, that's all fro January 2020. February 2020 coming up soon!

 

Tim Jovick

 

 

 

 

[johnhoward]

In response to several inquiries I have recently received regarding USS St Louis & other City Class Ironclad Rudder Controls resulting from Tim's photo Posting #257, the attached document represents my original research in 2018 and the plan we are following for the USS St. Louis Ironclad Model. The dual rudder control authority for the City Class Ironclads was notoriously poor and apparently was modified during initial trials or later service life. The tiller appears to have been lengthened and geometry revised. The biggest problem may have been slack in the lengthy cable, chain or hawser ropes between the steering wheel and the rudder tillers. I'm not certain that steel cable was available so chain was the best alternative for reducing this slackness and apparently not really a great solution either. The actual USS Cairorudder, tiller and aft deck was recovered pretty much intact, being made mostly of metal so the early NPS surveys should be fairly accurate.

 

JOHNHOWARD

[timboni]

OK, these pictures are from February 2020. Again, apologies for the delay. And thanks to John (Howie) Smith for his clarifications of issues regarding several topics, for example the Doctor Engine and the rudder assembly. Photos and text by Bill Kammermeyer.

        

Stern hurricane deck cap strap in place and view of              Scribed sheets of Formica glued to thin plywood to make a scale 2½ inch sheet of armor

front casement armor                                                                                                           for the side casements

 

                                                          

Bow casement armor glued in place and cut to fit gun ports and descriptive opening.

Long chain pipes to guide steering from the underside of the Hurricane Deck down to the Aft Deck pulley system for the rudders.

 

                                  

The Hurricane Deck cap strip cut and glued in place. Both bow         Just in from Fred Hecker, nicely gunport hinge straps made from ½ inch wide copper with a                    and stern deck cap strips had to follow the camber      rolled and soldered bottom edge that fits the hinge pin. They will be cut to length and drilled                        with the Hurricane Deck. A tricky bit of fine work!             and snugly fit the casements, yet still be able to be removed for attachment to gun port lids.

 

These are only the first six of many from February of 2020. More to come later.

 

Tim

 

 

                                                 

          

             

[mbp521]

Thanks for posting these Tim. Looking forward to seeing more. 
 

-Brian

[French Mr Bean]

Super work bravo !

[timboni]

        OK, more from February 2020: again, pictures and captions are by Bill Kammermeyer.

                                                  

            Outboard horizontal plank scribe lines to be cut for gun port lids. Used a vibrating multi- tool and a Square to scribe the lines.

 

                                                    

Using a strip holder for the gun port lid stock, vertical inboard scribes were made with the multi-tool and jig. Wood at center was used as a straightedge guide for the jig using the adjustments front and back. Strip at side was a guide for both outside scribe lines. The jig was then used for the center line cut.

 

                                                

                                                  Use of a foot control on/off switch made cutting the lines much easier and safer.

 

                                                 

           Detail of fine scribe lines in gun port lid stock. Each took about 4 seconds to make and were very accurate with controlled depth.

 

                            

The gun port stock represents a two-layer lid construction. Horizontal planks on the outside and vertical planks on the inside. A differentiation line needed to be run down the center of the quarter-inch stock. The multi-tool in its jig was clamped to the side of the workbench. The lid stock was run along the side of the workbench at the correct height and the line cut into the stock in about 5 seconds.

 

This type of construction was chosen to eliminate the need of laminating individual strips of

wood and trying to keep them square and true. Also, there is no worry about delamination 45-degree holes are drilled in the centers for cannon barrels.

 

                          

View of the cutting blade 1/8-inch above the surface of the workbench surface. Center line cut may be seen on the facing edge of the stock. The lids will be pre-cut and the cannon holes drilled individually for the specific height of the cannon caliber. All doors will be

                                                                    painted black so the sugar burn on the Maple will be irrelevant.

 

                                             

                                           Gun port doors rough-cut to size from pre- scribed strips. 45 degrees at both top and bottom.

 

                                             

Rough cut doors are checked for fit. Mike and I measured and marked the gun port blanks for the 45-degree-angle hole for each cannon. The doors will be cut across at that horizontal center line so cannon may stick out.

 

                                                                  

      Practice blank to establish center height for each caliber of cannon. Hole was drilled at 45ﾟ angle for proper alignment in casement.   

 

                                                     

                                                               Actual gun port doors cut and rough fit for each caliber of Cannon.

 

                                 

                        Bottom portion of gunport doors on casement sides will be in a closed position while the top portion will be open and held at a

                                                                 horizontal plus angle. Strap hinges will be added later.

 

                                           

Before doors were made stops had to be placed inside each port. A jig (right) Was made to match door thickness and then stops were applied from the inside against the back of the jig. Stops were installed, glued and clamped (left).

 

                                            

Using a 4-tooth vibrating blade on the modified on the multi-tool, I was able to cut controlled horizontal seam lines as seen here in a freehand practice session.

 

                                       

I set up a straight edge on the seam line and cut every other armor plate in a very controlled fashion using a tool on/off switch.

The tool again worked very well, and no extra blade need be purchased. I just ground out a flat spot on the 300-degree “half-moon” blade that left 4 teeth that moved only a few thousandths of an inch per stroke.

 

OK, moe from February 2020 hopefully coming shortly. Please to enjoy.

 

Tim

 

[timboni]

       More from February 2020:

 

 

 

When painted and dry-brushed, the seams should look quite realistic.

 

Using a jig on the drill press and following pre-made marks as per plan, holes for the armor bolts were drilled.

 

Modified brass pins with a washer and hex head pounded into them were placed in each hole and pushed flush with the surface.

 

The bolts were placed in each hole for the lower band of armor, hammered flush and then cut and sanded flush on the back side. Every 6th bolt was omitted so that a full long nail could be inserted for extra strength after gluing. Mike and I attached

 

Mike made the weather deflectors for the smokestacks that would run rainwater off the top edge of the insulating collars for the Hurricane Deck. They were center board pieces of maple that were then shaped to the plan dimensions by hand. I then enlarged the center hole on a spindle sander for a snug fit on the smokestack pipe. It will attach snugly to the smokestack and have no contact with the heat insulator below it. It will be covered

with metal foil and rivets.

 

Hard foam block used with a drill press to make uniform repetitive holes for hinge cups.

 

After drilling center holes in bottoms of cups, holes were drilled for flat head pins which were soldered into place. One end was rounded while still on the brass stock, then they were cut to uniform size using a stop on my Mini- Chop Saw.

 

The heads of the brass pins were tinned with solder and placed in pre-drilled bottom holes and heated with a soldering iron. There was instant attachment. Hanging a clip from the bottom of the nail caused it to drop down

flat in the hole as soon as the solder was liquid.

 

Other side of the cup was rounded holding it by the pin in a pin vise. Holes were evenly spaced on the hinge strap.

Referencing mark on back of the wooden guide made for even spacing of holes

 

Brass pin joined the strap and the cup with a brass hinge pin cut and peened to finish the assembly. Only 50 more to go!

 

 

 Bow gun port doors

 

 

Working gun port doors.

 

                                                  Making cleats out of 1/8” brass rod, for the ropes to the gun port doors. Sorry for the small size of photo and fuzziness

	OK, that's all for February of 2020. March 2020 comin' up!