Wood Selection/thickness questions

[iMack]

Hello all, 

 

I'm in the process of planning my first build and searching for materials. I will be building the HMS Leopard at a 1:80 scale. Since this is my first build I'm unsure of what thickness of matieral to be looking for. I'm planning to use lime wood for the planking and plywood for the keel. 

 

What thickness of planking is usually used at this scale? and..

Is plywood acceptable for the keel, and if so what thickness? 

 

Thanks folks, 

iMack

 

EDIT: Sorry i never noticed the wood subcategory, my mistake. 

Edited April 2, 2015 by iMack

[Jaager]

From the questions that you ask, it appears that you are scratch building HMS Leopard. 

Asking about a plywood keel suggests that you are planning to use POB as the method to form the hull.

 

The materials used to build the hull of a late 18th century warship is a bit more involved than a single thickness of planking.  The sizes of the parts of the hull are what is called Scantlings.

 

The easiest source for these:

 

SCANTLINGS OF THE ROYAL NAVY 1719-1805
Comparisons of 1719, 1745 Establishments, Ship Builders Repository and Steel’s Elements and Practice
by Allan Yedlinsky

14”x8 ½”, semi concealed, lay flat Wiro binding, heavy paper cover, 271 pages, one color

$45
+ $9 shipping & handling US/
$20 Canada/$30 All other locations

PAYMENT: Visa, MasterCard, Discover
and checks in USD made out to 'Sea Watch Books, LLC' accepted.

 

As for Leopard, she is well documented in the following book:

 

 

The 50-Gun Ship (Shipshape) Hardcover – January, 2004

by Rif Winfield (Author)

5 customer reviews

 

 

 

 

 

See all 4 formats and editions

• Hardcover
  from $13.75 17 Used from $13.75 10 New from $24.99
• Paperback
  from $23.34 12 Used from $23.34 9 New from $56.09

 

 

There is even a set of removable plans at 1:96 

[iMack]

Thanks for the swift reply Jaager. That is correct I'll be scratch building it, however I was aiming to use the POF method. This is not finalised yet, so I might yet use the POB direction. I'm a complete beginner so please excuse all the questions. I assume plywood is not suitable for the keel and ribs then. I'll take a look at those links. I'm looking for a relatively affordable alternative as my student budget doesn't stretch far!

 

Thanks again, 

iMack 

Edited April 3, 2015 by iMack

[Jaager]

A two deck fourth rate vessel will be a challenging first for scratch POF.  It is possible.  I would suggest a cutter, schooner, or small brig to begin, but they are not as "sexy" as a Ship-of-the-Line when first looking at this endeavor.

POF is certainly closer to how the original vessels were built.  It is  my preference.  

Except for the building board, there is not much use for plywood with POF.

The major sources of cost will be the tools, not the wood.

You can use locally available species.  Some of us harvest our own from the "wild".

My favorite - Apple - is not often obtainable any other way.

Lime (Linden/Basswood) will work for much, if not all. - I prefer harder wood, but that is an individual choice.

Some species are open grain - open pores - have high contrast between Spring and Summer wood and do not look good to me when simulating wood at model scales ; Oak, Walnut, Mahogany, Hickory, Aspen.  But again, that is a personal preference.

You can use hand tools for much of the work.  If you use Lime, hand tool work will be faster than with the harder species.

[iMack]

I do realise I'm jumping straight into the deep end. I have completed a small boat before in a clinker style, however it was made using styrene. I'll add a link below. I'm a complete novice using wood, however I bought myself two model boat building books that will help guide me through. Along with the help on the forums they will aid me greatly. Tools shouldn't be a problem. I have at my disposal laser cutters, a wood workshop full of machinery (circular saw, band saw, lathe, CNC machine) and an SLA 3D printer for all the custom pieces. I will most likely use lime because of it's availability.

 

As for the scantling, what thickness of keel/ribs would you recommend on this scale (1:80)? Are these usualy two smaller pieces of wood glued back to back, or a single piece.The only restraint I have on this build is time really. I have 6 weeks to complete it, however I am able to dedicate the whole time towards this as it is a university project. 

 

 

http://cargocollective.com/iainmackenzie

 

Thanks again, 

iMack

Edited April 3, 2015 by iMack

[allanyed]

iMack

 

Regarding your question about the thickness of the keel and frames, the keel varies forward and aft from center.  A frame's siding varies as they rise as does its moulded dimensions. 

 

If you had posted this two days ago I would say you were doing an April Fools joke.  Please say 6  weeks  is a typo and you meant  60 weeks. 

 

 

Allan

Edited April 3, 2015 by allanyed

[iMack]

When regarding the keel and frames, I meant the width of the wood (not the thickness in terms of height, my apologies).  

 

and you heard me right. I realise it's a big undertaking, however I have the frames and keel drawn up and can be laser cut in a few hours. I can dedicate all day every day for 6 weeks. So it adds up to over 500 hours. Is this enough? I won't be doing any rigging so it'll just be a completed hull. 

 

thanks, 

Iain 

Edited April 3, 2015 by iMack

[Jaager]

You offer no info on where you are, but since you call the wood Lime, I am guessing the UK.  If so, I can offer no alternate wood selections that are local, low cost and appropriate to your project.

As Allan has said, your time frame is likely unrealistic.  It generally takes longer to build a model that it did to build the original ship.  Basically it is one person doing all of the tasks done by a small army of skilled craftsmen in a shipyard and its subcontractors.

I would be surprised if Leopard could be modeled in 6 weeks in Blender, 3DS Max, Maya, Rhino 3D, etc.  And with them, you would not need to wait 12hr for glue to setup. (You want to use a PVA wood glue like Titebond -  CA instant is not a good choice.)

[iMack]

Hey. Correct I am based in the UK, in Bournemouth. hmm Okay this gives me some more perspective, thanks for the input. I'll have to have a think over. Perhaps a sixth rate ship of the line might be more appropriate? 

 

With the pins in place wouldn't that hold the glue so that it can set in it's own time, meanwhile working on the following layer?

Edited April 3, 2015 by iMack

[Jaager]

Even if you started with a solid hull, and no planking - the solid hull being shaped to the outside of the planking, I doubt that you could do the wales, rails - keel, stem, gun ports - bow assembly - deck - hatches - in 500 hrs - you might not be able to do the stern alone in that length of time. 

 

A warship was -  and still is - the ultimate of the technology of its time.  Nothing we build is more complex.  It encompasses just about everything the technology can do.

 

I am not fond of lofting frames - I hoped that 3D CAD would allow the lines to be input and the frame outlines extracted at any point - but that is not what 3D CAD is about.  What I wanted can be done (I think) in a 3D modeling program, but not CAD.  The work involved is such that I think it easier to hand draft.  I doubt Hivewire was able to model Dawn in Mondo in 500 hrs, never mind a 4th rate Man of War.

[allanyed]

Imack

 

The vertical dimension of the keel does not change except for a slight upturn of a perhaps 6 inches at the forward end to allow a boxing joint to be made to tie to the lower stem piece.  The width does in fact change as it tapers slightly forward and aft.   My point in bringing this up is that you are a beginner and we love having new blood here, but listen to those that have been there.  Do a simple model first, or, if you really want to do a more technical model, plan to spend a year or two or more.  You have more mentors available here than you would probably want, so you are lucky fellow compared to those of us that had only what few books we could find in the library back in the day.  Take the advice of those that have been there before you.

 

Allan

[grsjax]

Have to agree with the above comments about the difficulties of doing a two decker as a first build.  However that is your choice so enough said.  As for wood I like poplar as a general building wood.  Widely available, not expensive, hard enough for most purposes but easy to work.  Cherry and walnut are also good choices if you can get straight grained pieces.  Maple is very good but some species can be hard to work.

 

Just a suggestion but build the ship's boats first as a lead in to the main event.

[iMack]

Thanks for the comments guys. It looks like I've set the bar a bit high, the main reason I'd chosen this ship was because of the availability of plans. (not to mention high quality tiff files) For my first build I'd like to use a full set of plans, just to keep myself at ease. Could you folks suggest me good website with plans I could acquire? 

Edited April 3, 2015 by iMack

[grsjax]

Thanks for the comments guys. It looks like I've set the bar a bit high, the main reason I'd chosen this ship was because of the availability of plans. (not to mention high quality tiff files) For my first build I'd like to use a full set of plans, just to keep myself at ease. Could you folks suggest me good website with plans I could acquire? 

Modelexpo sells sets of plans for all their kits.  Several websites have plans available.  Lots of books with plans in them, anything by Howard I. Chappel or William A. Baker would be good place to start.  The Smithsonian Institute sells plans from their collection at very reasonable prices.  The National Maritime Museum also sells plans but I have heard that they can be expensive.  Google ship or boat plans (3,090,000 hits when I googled it) and you will come up with a lot of websites.  All depends on what you are looking for in terms of size, price and subject.

 

A good first build from the days of sail is the Armed Virginia Sloop (P-O-B, plans available from Modelexpo).  A British revenue cutter would also be a good one.

Edited April 4, 2015 by grsjax

[mtaylor]

Mack,

What are you looking for in the way of a ship and a model?  Warship, merchant, cutter, other?  POB or POF or solid hull?  There's Hahn's plans, ANCRE monographs, Model Expo, Taubman Plans and others.  There's also sailboat and pleasure boat sites that sell plans for the real deal but could be scaled down.   

Just be careful (ask first) as there's some sites that are pure piracy and MSW has a strict stance on piracy.

[tkay11]

If you are thinking of getting into scratch building, you might want to look at building 'La Jacinthe', a French schooner of 1823. The monograph produced by Ancre is excellent, as are the plans and instructions that go with it. It is POB, but you can go as detailed as you like and several modellers have made it plank on frame. Because of the combination of instructions on building, list of the materials necessary and the excellence and details of the plans, it lends itself to a first time scratch builder. The author claims he gave the monograph to a 15 year old boy who was able to make it himself -- albeit with a little help from the author. The book is available in English as well as in French.

 

If you speak French, there are also lots of builds that are beautiful on the French model ship fora. You can also see several stages of a POF build of La Jacinthe by Frolich in his book 'Art of Ship Modelling' which you can also find from Ancre books in France.

 

You can see details of the monograph at http://ancre.fr/en/monographies-en/52-monographie-de-la-jacinthe-goelette-1823.html.

 

There is also a very nice model of 'La Chaloupe Armee' which is very much simpler but has a very different method of construction, which you can also find through Ancre at http://ancre.fr/en/monographies-en/31-monographie-de-la-chaloupe-armee-en-guerre-1834.html.

 

As these come from France, you have no import duties at all and all the references to lengths are in metric. An additional perk is that the Euro is extremely low against the pound, so these monographs and plans come in at a very reasonable price. I myself have bought the monograph and plans for 'Le Rochefort' -- which is a POF build.

 

Otherwise, as has been said, there are plenty of lovely builds you can follow on this forum, including the cross section builds of Triton and Echo -- both of which are also great ways of learning about POF building. (Not that I know anything at all about building from plans or POF since I am only on my first model build).

 

Tony

Edited April 4, 2015 by tkay11

[allanyed]

There are some very nice sets of plans free for downloading at the Library of Congress including the schooners Lettie Howard and Ernestina.  Both are beautiful vessels and can be built POB, POF, or solid hull. 

 

Google Library of Congress and the vessel name and the series of plans and photos will come up.  They can be downloaded in TIFF and a few other formats and are quite clear when enlarged.  For the Ernestina, www.loc.gov/pictures/item/ma1719/   When it opens, on the left side of the page,  click on drawings or photos as you wish to see.

 

Allan

Edited April 5, 2015 by allanyed