Windlass on 1815 Revenue cutter

[RichardG]

Having seen various beautifully made windlasses here (e.g. on the cutter Cheerful), I'm wondering if the revenue cutter I am building would have had one?

 

Neither the AL plans nor the drawings in Chappelle's book show a windlass. Given its size and weight (70 ft and 80 tons), I'm assuming raising the anchors would not have been done by hand.

 

I'm trying to complete all the deck furniture before starting the rigging and I'd like not to miss anything.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

 

Thanks,

Richard. 

[Jim Lad]

Richard,

 

Exactly what is your cutter?  They would usually have a windlass.

 

John

[RichardG]

John,

 

It is the Dallas 1815 US Revenue cutter - see my build log (link below).

 

Unfortunately have no accurate or detailed plans. 

 

Thanks,

Richard.

[Jim Lad]

Ok, Richard - I'm not familiar with US cutters, but I think it would be unusual for it not to have some form of windlass.  Perhaps there's an American member who can clarify this.

 

John

[Terry N]

This is a good and serious question. I am starting a build of  HM Sloop  Mediator 1745 from the 1/48 plans produced by Jeff Staudt available on the Modelshipbuilder website.

 

These are a great set of plans,accurate and detailed.But there is absolutely no sign of a windlass or any method of hauling up the anchor. I cannot believe that Jeff,who has been so thorough, would miss something as fundamental as the windlass.

 

So,I check the Chapelle plan in the "Search for speed under sail" book.Again,absolutely no sign of a windlass or any method of hauling in the anchor.Now the sloop Mediator is roughly the same size and displacement as an 1815 cutter,so would carry roughly the same size anchor.

 

So what is going on?.Did Chapelle merely assume that everyone ,including Blind Freddie's Dog ,would know that you have to have a windlass to raise the anchor,and therefore did not bother including it in his plan?.Or were these ships manned by superhuman matelots who could haul an anchor up by unlevered brute strength?.Or was some method of using blocks and tackles used to haul in these anchor cables.?.

 

I eagerly await  input from minds greater than mine

 

Terry N

[Tadeusz43]

Hi Richard,

I am now working with ss Savannah 1818 and I think the windlass on your Revenue should be the same type.

 

Tadeusz

[RichardG]

Thanks Tadeusz   

 

There is space between the forward hatch and bowsprit, so now all I have to do is build one.

 

Richard.

[grsjax]

On smaller schooners it was a common practice to not have a windlass and instead use a tackle attached to a strong point near the main mast to haul the anchor.  There would be one on either side of the deck used alternately to haul the cable inboard.  Made for a simple, light weight system that could be cleared away when not needed so it took up no deck space.

Edited April 26, 2015 by grsjax

[jbshan]

The illustration shown above has an almost exact match with one from 1885 in 'Capstans and Windlasses' by John Harland, so I suspect a bit too late for 1815.

I think it would have a windlass.  Click on 'Gallery' at the top of each of these pages and there are examples of Royal Navy cutters from the late 1700s, models in the collection of the NMM in Greenwich, UK.  There might be something there.

Failing that, I recently put up photos of one on my model of Lexington of 1775 that is based on another example from Harland's book.  I think it is a fairly common version from that late 1700, early 1800 time frame.  It's also fairly simple and could be built and/or repaired on board.

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/9953-lexington-by-jbshan-dlumberyard-164-from-the-seaways-practicum-by-clay-feldman/?view=findpost&p=295786

Dunno if that link will work.  Maybe just click on my icon?

[trippwj]

Having seen various beautifully made windlasses here (e.g. on the cutter Cheerful), I'm wondering if the revenue cutter I am building would have had one?

 

Neither the AL plans nor the drawings in Chappelle's book show a windlass. Given its size and weight (70 ft and 80 tons), I'm assuming raising the anchors would not have been done by hand.

 

I'm trying to complete all the deck furniture before starting the rigging and I'd like not to miss anything.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

 

Thanks,

Richard. 

 

Richard -

 

The Doughty Revenue cutters are such an interesting class but so little is really known about them!

 

I would not assume there is a windlass on these - the Dallas and Surprise were both relatively small 79 ton (BM) top sail schooners of about 69' 6"length on deck.  While Chapelle took some liberties in reconstructing the features, he tended toward the error of adding rather than removing deck features. 

 

His redrawing of the 1831 Revenue Cutter Morris (designed and built by Samuel Humphreys, slightly larger at 73' 4" length between perpendiculars) shows a winch mounted to the side of each pin rack (fife rail?) - just forward of each mast.

 

While it is not necessarily the standard used in the US at the time, according to Falconer's (1815 Burney edition), the largest anchor would be about 14 cwt (hundred weight - 1,400 pounds) for a gun brig of 180 tons - double the size of these revenue cutters.

 

When I get a moment, I'll dig into my anchor references and see what else I can come up with.

 

EDIT: here is the earliest US specific guidance I currently have:

 

Totten, Benjamin J. Naval Text-Book. Letters to the Midshipmen of the United States Navy on Masting, Rigging, and Managing Vessels of War. Boston: C. C. Little and J. Brown, 1841. http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/008602848.

 

Edited April 26, 2015 by trippwj

[RichardG]

grsjax,

 

That would be simpler. I've been looking to see if I could find the weight of each anchor - that would be useful to see how much effort would be needed - but so far I haven't been successful.

 

 

Joel,

What you have on post #12 is what I was thinking of, a bit simpler than the example from Tadeusz, which might be more likely for a smaller 1815 vessel.

 

 

Wayne,

I see you've provided the answer to my question about weight  . So using the simple rule of 5cwt per hundred tons gives about 400 pounds per anchor. Definately more than a couple of men and a rope! 

 

In Chapelle's "History of American Sailing Ships", there are drawings of a Top-Sail schooner "Marble Head" which is slightly smaller than the Dallas and a bit older (1767). The drawings show almost no deck detail but on the perspective drawing pp 225, there does seem to be a windlass immediately behind the foremast . 

 

 

 

 

Having so little information about this particular ship is both a blessing and curse! Unless I do something stupid, it won't be completely wrong, but I have no way to know how close I am. For my next project I'm planning to use one of the ships in the AOTS series - still not perfect but better.

 

 

Thanks everyone for your help.

Richard.

 

[grsjax]

The tackle used was more than just a rope.  It usually consisted of two double blocks.  This gives a 4 to 1 mechanical advantage if the end of the line is belayed to the first block.  If the line is continuous, i.e. both ends free, the mechanical advantage is 5 to 1.  This would be more than enough purchase for two men to lift a 400 pound anchor.

Edited April 27, 2015 by grsjax

[Terry N]

Grsjax,

Thanks,your answer makes a lot of sense and would seem to solve the problem.

 

Terry N

[RichardG]

I'm still a little undecided 

 

I am leaning towards having a windlass, partly for the practice of building one (and if it turns out badly I can always change my mind!). I will probably not attach it permanently yet, I still need to work out a rigging plan and this may effect any final decision.

 

Thanks again everyone.

Richard.

[druxey]

A windlass of about 1815 on a small vessel would be worked by short capstan-style bars called normans. It would look like the one Chuck Passaro sells on the Syren Ship Model Company's site.

[jbshan]

A windlass of about 1815 on a small vessel would be worked by short capstan-style bars called normans. It would look like the one Chuck Passaro sells on the Syren Ship Model Company's site.

That's the kind I'm talking about.  You stick your bars in the holes and pull.  Chuck's has iron cogs for the pawls.  Mine could become iron with some paint.  Post #11 above is a little simpler.  You will need to decide how or if the bowsprit interacts with the windlass.

[RichardG]

Thanks druxey and Joel.

 

Chuck's windlass is definitely an inspiration. The scale is close enough to mine that I had considered just buying one from him. However unless something I need is beyond my skill level and/or I don't have the equipment needed, I will try to build it myself first. In this case mine won't be as good but hopefully it will be good enough, if not, I can change my mind (again!). I have already purchased rope and blocks from Chuck, so I know the quality is there.

 

Richard.

[wjpwjp]

many thanks!!

[twintrow]

Richard

here is photo of a 1763 cutter windlass type..see the whole thread here  

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/10370-18th-and-early-19th-century-cutter-models/

Edited May 4, 2015 by twintrow

[wjpwjp]

many thanks!

[Ed fanuzzi]

I have a vintage heavy large vertical American Engineering ships deck anchor working capstain.

Unable to find any information ships that used this manual 5 man powered with poles inserted in top march around in circle , if reversed marching direction it would continue pulling anchor up in same direction slower but with more lifting power if stuck in mud , amazing gearing action for this to happen , I also have some bollards of that vintage an unusual round top instead of flat common top with  2 rope ties sticking out where ears would be ,have to paint a face on it , like to hear about the American engineering windlass ships used on, was possibly taken off the sunken steam tug GUY G MAJOR played on when a kid 76 yrs ago, was tied up at Decker towing on Staten Island, his restored old small tug W O DECKER is AT SOUTH street SEA PORT in Manhattan 

have pix of windlass in my photos folder 

 

[georgeband]

I faced the same problem with my 1805 schooner HMS Whiting. The Admiralty drawings do not show a windlass or any of the below-deck supports that one would need. The choice became either 'the drawings are incomplete' or 'there is no windlass' and I am very wary of claiming that a contemporary document is wrong. 

The answer came when I saw the original drawing for ZAZ6118 which has a letter attached. The letter which had not been digitized states quite clearly 'the Anchors were weighed by a Tackle'. No windlass. 

 

George

 

[tkay11]

I remember the discussions about the windlass for the Sherbourne. In its case the drawings did show a windlass. But that of course was much earlier (1763) than yours.

 

Tony