USS Independence by Philthy - Artesania Latina

[Philthy]

The piece that split is the sides of the ship and top section for the planking. Might be tricky but doable to use something different. When I'm not so pissed at her I will go back and try to fix it

Edited October 21, 2015 by Philthy

[lionfish]

yea it can be easy to get mad at something that goes wrong, i know from my research the AL can be hit and miss with wood, 

[Philthy]

Well after my mini stoke and or temper tantrum I think this is fixable. It's just gonna take some more time and effort. There's no time line on a model well at least not this one.

 

The bend held up pretty good after being clamped but all 3 layers of the plywood split apart. I plan on gluing them back together using some diluted PVA so it doesn't bubble up and hopefully dries flat. This part calls for trim planks on both the inboard and outboard sides so any blemishes will be covered up.

 

So this weeks plan / goal is to bend the other side and prepare for the worse. I need to go back and fair the bulkheads some more. Then maybe after this get to preparing the false decks. This means evening the tops and fixing the curve in the decks (can't remember what that is called. Counter maybe?)

[lionfish]

Well after my mini stoke and or temper tantrum I think this is fixable. It's just gonna take some more time and effort. There's no time line on a model well at least not this one.

 

The bend held up pretty good after being clamped but all 3 layers of the plywood split apart. I plan on gluing them back together using some diluted PVA so it doesn't bubble up and hopefully dries flat. This part calls for trim planks on both the inboard and outboard sides so any blemishes will be covered up.

 

So this weeks plan / goal is to bend the other side and prepare for the worse. I need to go back and fair the bulkheads some more. Then maybe after this get to preparing the false decks. This means evening the tops and fixing the curve in the decks (can't remember what that is called. Counter maybe?)

i was doing some reading about bending planks. one site says not to use heat or liquid on plywood as it will split and splinter. they say to score the back side to achieve the curve. worth a try to avoid the trouble you had before.

[Philthy]

Hi Lionfish, thanks for the info yet again. It makes sense not to soak plywood since the water can dissolve the adhesive binding the layers together. I didn't think about this issue when I was prepping this part for the bow bend. I will take a look at scoring the starboard side piece. This might be a bit tricky since its not very sturdy or thick. As long as I clamp the soaked plywood when forming the bend I should be able to just glue the layers back together. Hopefully I can get some time after work today for repairs.

[Philthy]

Let the repairs begin! I first tackled fixing the split plywood piece that is to be the rail section at deck level. I watered down some PVA glue and "painted" it on. Use dang near all my baby clips to hold the 3 layers together. I will see if this works tomorrow. If not it looks like I will have to get creative replacing this.

Next I set out "fixing" the false decking. I think it's called the quarter deck section was a little messed up. The only supports the kit had for this was at the front and back of the deck with nothing on the sides. It also did not have the right angle based on what I think are accurate plans. I added some scrap strip wood laying around to raise the deck some to reflect the plans and not look all messed up if left alone. I will have sand the added wood some to create the curve in the deck.

I'm not sure if these are regular repairs or if I'm venturing into the kit bash realm. This is really a learning project still being a novice builder. Not so much the general construction aspect but the repairs and modifications needed thus far. I have a feeling many more lay ahead

Edited October 22, 2015 by Philthy

[dgbot]

You are doing a great job keep it up

[shihawk]

Welcome to the world of ship building ,things seldom run smoothly all the time ,but once you accept that you are better prepared !!!! Where would we be without the clothespeg ?????

[7 Provinces]

Wow, wicked pace you have!

About bending plywood: in my experience soaking does not good. At best you get back the same shape it was before once it is really dry again. This also has to do with the relative humidity of the environment where the wood is. The best experience I made was to treat it as if it were a thermoplastic: bend it a bit and relax the material by applying heat. Like so it will stay more or less in shape since there is no tension anymore. Repeat this in increments depending on what the wood can take. However, where this technique works well to bend wood, it is not easy to straighten already bent wood like this. This will only work when you fix the wood at one end and apply heat when bending it straight and then fix the other side. I use an old iron to apply heat. A bit big for most purposes, but it works 

[skipper1947]

I am puzzled why they would make a piece out of plywood, if it has to be bent (any kit; not this one specifically).

 

Skip

Edited October 22, 2015 by skipper1947

[Philthy]

AHOY! During the night the damage control teams (baby clothes pins) were hard at work and the Skipper should award them with an extra ration of grog for their efforts. This morning I was scrambling to get ready for work and out the door in time but I wanted to see how the repairs turned out and both look great!

 

First of the split ply wood that was in 3 pieces is now one single piece and the bend at the bow is still holding true! I did a quick test fit against the port side bow filler block and it looks good to me. Since aligning the 3 thin pieces was a bit tricky, there is a tinny shift where the edges, scuppers, and gun ports line up. A little filler and a few passes with the little file should clean these guys right up. I am not too worried about this though since I was thinking way ahead in expanding the gun ports a little to make room for added trim pieces. Always thinking a few weeks down the road.

 

The false deck risers look good as well. I did a quick dry fit with the false quarter deck piece and she lines up spot on. Since the trim pieces followed the existing curve of the bulkheads thanks to the binder clips, the decking has a nice curve to help with shedding water on deck.

 

Lastly the forecastle false deck piece was successfully glued on without any issues (for once lol). The kit had pilot holes and pegs to align false decking however, I decided to adjust it some. When I say adjust I mean I took the dremel tool and grinded it off so the decking lines up and not on a crazy upward angle. At the previous angle the deck would have been flush with the top rails at the bow which didn't look right to the eye and didn't match up at all with the 1:1 blue prints.

[7 Provinces]

Good point Skip, it is not ideal 

I cannot think of any good reason for static ship models but when you have an RC model ship I can see the advantage in thin ply. Even more so for RC model planes. There is very light and strong and very bendable 1 or 1.5 mm birch plywood available, very suitable for sailing ships, speed boats or planes. When you don't want to build your RC boat using a plastic vacuform and still it needs to be light and strong, then this is a good alternative in my eyes. 

Edited October 23, 2015 by 7 Provinces

[Philthy]

Hello again!
 

I decided to take it a bit easy tonight since I got home from work a bit late. I soaked a piece of planking that I broke earlier and it is currently bending to shaped as shim for one of the bulkheads that sits a little shallow in comparison to its neighboring bulkheads. Once the shim dries I can easily glue it to the side of the bulkhead and then file down the angle in preparation of planking. 

 

My mind is still going back to the plywood piece for the side rails. I am thinking about replacing both pieces for a number of reasons. I have done some test fitting and the sucker will simply not line up to the many decks as it should. To fix this I am thinking about taking measurements from the deck height to the to height of the top rails as presented on the 1:1 plans and then re-cut the kit pieces to fit. I would also have to fix / re-cut the gun ports and scuppers.

 

Or my second option that I am leaning towards is using the existing piece that is not working as a rough template and making new ones from scratch. I can then measure out the correct distance from the deck to the top rail (taking into account the top rail trim piece). I am trying to think it though and here is what I have came up with:

 

1. It will actually fit and look better than the existing laser cut pieces of plywood.

2. The gun ports can be cut at the correct height (as of now the opening is way to high)

3. I can recut the scuppers when I scratch build the waterways when it comes time for decking. 

4. Why the hell not?

 

Im gonna think about this some more while I take care of other items in order. I still need to fair down the starboard side bulkheads for planking still (hate that part), paint the sub deck sections black before installing the main deck and quarter deck (figured it would be easier), then finally instal the rest of the false decking. 

 

Oh wise and powerful shipwrights of the forum, if you think this will work please let me know or if you have any tips. Again I am in uncharted waters when it comes to modifying a kit. Also thanks for taking the time to read this, I know I can be a bit long winded. 

Edited October 23, 2015 by Philthy

[lionfish]

Hello again!

Easy nights work today. I added a small shim to one of the bulkheads that were a little shallow in comparison to its neighbors. This is of course over a few glasses of fermented grapes and then I got to thinking.

 

I'm thinking about replacing the problematic pieces of plywood with some stock wood I have laying around from the hobby shop. This would get around the splitting problem and I can use the existing piece as a rough template. The reason why I say rough template is because the rail height is way off in comparison to the multiple decks I have. I'm thinking I can measure the right height from the plans and transfer this to the stock wood.

just dont down too many glasses of said grapes, knives are sharp wouldnt want an MUI. but id say just get rid of the ply wood, i read its only good for the bulkheads and such, plus now you dont have to finish the edges of the plywood.

[lionfish]

my fathers calipers work wonders for taking measurements and transferring them.

[7 Provinces]

Phil, if my eye is not deceiving me from your picture I see that you are going to replace the ply with balsa.

Just a word of caution here: balsa can be very practical but it is much more fragile than the ply so I would think twice before using for rails or any outside parts which can get dented or otherwise damaged easily. Also, in my opinion, it is harder to work exact with it, like making (and keeping) sharp edges, straight lines, etc. because it is so soft and fibrous. It is not always easy to get a nice sanded surface like you can with other woods in my opinion.

 

On another note I concur with the other comments that it is normal to have some setbacks. To me one of the beautiful and most rewarding things is how our minds can overcome these setbacks with solutions. 

[mtaylor]

Phil,

 

What Jan said about the balsa is good info.  Most hobby type places sell sheet basswood which would work better.

[Philthy]

Good catch on the picture guys. Like a dummy I grabbed the wrong sheet when I took the photo lol. I have some 1/16 thick sheet basswood that should work. I have to do some looking and thinking on it. Audios!

[Philthy]

Made some progress today on the stern section by adding some filler blocks. This is already helping me out in visualizing how the transom will go together as well as the ending points for planking. No real issues in making or shaping the stern blocks after cutting my teeth on the ones made for the bow. 

 

I also installed all the false decking and sanded the sides down so the are inline from the bow and back. I did mess up the "leveling" of the decks. I under stand there needs to be a slight curve outboard however on some of the decks, one side is higher than the other side. I am hoping a sanding block on the high side will correct this. The difference is maybe a millimeter or two and the plywood should be thick enough. Im really glad I went overboard with the bracings since I have been putting some stress on the hull during the standing and filling steps. 

[Philthy]

I believe the stern filler blocks are all set and were a success. This is my first experience using filler blocks at the bow and stern and used scrap wood that I had laying about to boot This is just one of those little problems I had to figure out that will get better in time with following kits in the future. 

 

I also fixed the little issue I had with the deck heights being a little off. This was actually a lot easier to fix than I initially thought. I cut out about an in or so on the high or low side of the deck, adjusted accordingly, then secured with fast drying CA glue. Easy peasy. 

 

I still want to do a little bit more sanding on the false decks but I will leave that for tomorrow. The poop deck in particular looks a bit screwy but I am hoping some attention with a sanding block will do the trick. 

[Philthy]

I wanted to do a separate posting for this part to keep things in order. For  the past week or so I have had in the back of my head the problem of how to approach the top section of planking that makes up the deck walls (not sure of the name). As posted earlier in this build log I have the kit provided piece of ply wood that is meant to be the wall for all sections of the deck (except for the poop deck). I am not entirely thrilled at how this piece fits though. The top most angles of this piece is off that will mess up pretty much everything i.e. wall hight at each deck, scuppers height, and height of the gun ports. 

 

Im still not sure the best approach to this so I am doing a little experimentation. In the photos I have a piece of scrap planking forming the bend around the forecastle. The plan is to build upon this bent piece until the deck wall height is reached as well as the angle. I feel this will make achieving the correct angle that goes the entire length of the ship difficult. Maybe if I install the wall support pieces cut to length will help? 

 

The other option I am kicking around in using one solid piece of basswood instead. I am thinking of cutting out a piece about 1 inch thick that runs the length of the ship. I can then draw the deck levels on this piece based on the 1:1 plans and finally cut to size. 

 

One way or another I am going to focus on resolving this little issue tomorrow. If you guys have experience with something like this please feel free to chime in. Im sure both options are feasible but maybe there is a better way. 

 

As a side note thank you all for the likes and comments as well as following the build log It has been a real pleasure keeping it up to date with the progress being made

[GuntherMT]

I believe the stern filler blocks are all set and were a success. This is my first experience using filler blocks at the bow and stern and used scrap wood that I had laying about to boot This is just one of those little problems I had to figure out that will get better in time with following kits in the future. 

 

I also fixed the little issue I had with the deck heights being a little off. This was actually a lot easier to fix than I initially thought. I cut out about an in or so on the high or low side of the deck, adjusted accordingly, then secured with fast drying CA glue. Easy peasy. 

 

I still want to do a little bit more sanding on the false decks but I will leave that for tomorrow. The poop deck in particular looks a bit screwy but I am hoping some attention with a sanding block will do the trick. 

 

It's hard to tell for sure with the angle of your photo, but it looks like the final bulkhead at your stern still needs work, as it looks like the planks are laying nicely across the filler blocks and other bulkheads, but only touch the very aft part of that final bulkhead.

 

It is very important that your planking lay completely flat across all the bulkheads, or you'll have problems later on and won't be able to get a nice smooth planking on and will have to use lots of filler and sanding, which will preclude leaving a natural finish if that's your goal.

 

Definitely looks like you are moving in the right direction though!

[lionfish]

looking good, but like like gunther said, double check the rear most bulkhead, looks like it might need some more work. how did you do your bending?

[Philthy]

It's hard to tell for sure with the angle of your photo, but it looks like the final bulkhead at your stern still needs work, as it looks like the planks are laying nicely across the filler blocks and other bulkheads, but only touch the very aft part of that final bulkhead.

 

It is very important that your planking lay completely flat across all the bulkheads, or you'll have problems later on and won't be able to get a nice smooth planking on and will have to use lots of filler and sanding, which will preclude leaving a natural finish if that's your goal.

 

Definitely looks like you are moving in the right direction though!

 

I think it was the camera playing tricks as well as how I holding the wood strips. I checked and rechecked a bunch of different angles and the strip seems to have good coverage on the last and second to last bulkheads. When I did the final shaping of the blocks I used one of my little flat files so I shouldn't have and bumps in the back. 

[Philthy]

Woohoo I figured out how to make the deck walls That single piece of basswood worked out pretty well and looks a lot better than the ply wood. Now that I have figured this out I am starting to do some research on waterways. I think it would be a lot easier and look better if I can get the waterways installed before I attach the deck walls. 

 

lionfish: about your question on how I bent the wood a few posts ago. Its a bit complicated and scientific lol I soaked the strip in a wine bottle with hot water for about 5 minutes. I then clamped down the piece and held it in place with some modified binder clips till dried and its shape can be retained. 

[Philthy]

Ok so I have a question for the forum. Should I do any decking work i.e. waterways before I install the bulwarks? I have been snooping around some other build logs and it doesn't look like waterways are found on decks other than the main deck. This kit does not provide parts for this so it would have to be scratch made. Unfortunately the plans and instructions only call for a basic deck planking layout and I am tempted to add upon this in the form of waterways, hook and scarph at the bow, and staggered planking with treenails. 

 

I am a little hesitant about doing the extra deck detailing since this would be my first attempt at this, there is no clear how to for this kit, and all the parts would have to be custom made. 

 

Here is my thought process on this. 

Before I install the bulwarks I would use a template to cut out the waterways from a sheet of basswood. I can then sand them down to reduce the thickness since my deck planking is very thin strips about 1mm thick. By installing the waterways and perimeter deck planking I can ensure there is minimal gaps when its time to install the bulwarks. 

[GuntherMT]

If you do a waterway, it is generally going to be thicker than the planking, and be beveled to match the planking level at the inner edge.  If you are just wanting to create an edge plank for your deck planking to mate with rather than just going directly to the bulkheads, then that is a 'nibbing plank' and will be the same thickness as your deck planking.  You can also do both, which I believe would be the typical fashion (it's how my AVS was done, both waterway and nibbing plank).  

 

I think the nibbing plank is called differently based upon how the deck planking joins with it, as in some cases (like my AVS) there is not actually any nibbing done into that plank (it's a hook & scarph arrangement into the nibbing plank).

 

The AVS included the waterway and nibbing plank, but I didn't follow the plans at all for the planking, and it was my second build.  I just followed a sort of 'standard' planking plan based on an arbitrary plank length that I decided on, starting at the centerline and working out.  The nibbing plank was just faked by creating a pattern off of the plans, but leaving out the nibbing part, and then smoothing it to fit up against  the waterway.  The planking was then made to fit snugly against the nibbing plank.

 

It's actually easier than doing the hull planking, as the deck is almost completely flat so the only real challenge is making the outer edge fit well, and maintaining whatever pattern you choose to go with.

Edited October 26, 2015 by GuntherMT

[Philthy]

Hi Gunther,

After thinking about it I am planning on making a waterway for only the main deck with an edge plank as shown on your AVS. The other decks will have an edge plank as well with nibbing. I realized that prepping for working on the deck is a little premature at this time since I have other tasks I would like to finish up before moving on.

 

The plan for this week is to install the starboard bulwark piece and start work on the transom. The kit provides a metal cast transom piece that looks plain awful in my opinion. So it looks like I get to learn how to make a transom, windows, and decorative trim!

 

I will be sure to post some pictures when I get both of the bulwarks glued on if free time allows in a day or two.

[Philthy]

Made a little progress last night with installing the second bulwark and am pretty happy with the results. One side is a little higher than the other by about 2 mm but I should be able to even this out with some sanding to make it hardly noticeable. I am really glad I decided to ditch the stock bulwarks in favor of basswood pieces I made. They simply look and fit better which should improve the over all finished look. I wanted to mention the CA glue I have been using from Model Expo. This product is top notch in my opinion. Your probably saying so what it's just CA glue. I get it, but what I like about it is how thin the viscosity is. Just a touch on a seam and it spreads on out and gives a solid bond in a few seconds. This really helped out in giving me the initial tight bond to the sub decks while I added PVA glue on the insides for more strength.

 

Up next installing the stern post. I want this piece on before I start working on the transom so I can get a better idea of the overall look. Since this is more or less a imaginary kit I'm going to explore some transom photos of schooners from the period.

[lionfish]

i know you can get super glue in different viscosity, i feel like ive see that exact bottle under a different name though, hhmm, oh well glad its working for you