Robands Help

[mkmossop]

I'm looking for some help in making some robands to attach my sails to the yard. I'm not sure if "roband" is the right term since Google doesn't really give any results for it, but it was used in a model ship building book that I have.

 

This is the only decent picture I could find of a roband:

 

 

Just curious about what type of knot people use to tie these, and what size rope? Is it more common to just use a simple loop like this?

 

 

Thanks!

[druxey]

Nicely done roband there. For small scales, the simpler version is fine, but you'll impress folk by doing it correctly as you've shown. 

[mkmossop]

Hey thanks for the reply. Neither of those are mine actually, I found them both online.

 

So how big should the rope be? It looks rather large on the first model. How would I put holes in the sails to make room for the rope, and is there any guide to making a knot like that?

[popeye2sea]

The photo you show seems to have the robands in two parts with eye splices in each end.  Probably way too complicated for a roband.

 

I do not know what size rope to use but it should be smaller than the bolt rope of the sail.

 

The diagram below shows robands made in one piece.  The roband is doubled and the loop passed through the sail from back to front and then the ends lead as shown in the diagram and are finished with a square knot at the top of the yard.

 

 

If you are bending to a jackstay then the roband will lead  as in the figure below.

 

 

Regards,

[JerseyCity Frankie]

I cant imagine a need for all those eye splices between the spar and the sail, certainly not in a ship model where they will only serve to create a huge gap between the sail and the spar, and/or bizarre lumps. I believe there should be two robands in each cloth of the sail and if you are using thick thread you are going to wind up with a yard that looks ribbed. Err on the side of very thin robands. On an actual ship the line used for robands would not be thicker than your finger. If you use heavier stuff than that you will have the wrong look. You don't mention what ship you are building or what scale. On a model of such a scale that the yard is 12" wide or more you would have to show details- again, in my opinion. On a smaller scale ship you don't even- in my opinion- need to actually have the robands pierce the sail, they can simply be a turn around the yard and when you glue the sail over them they will look legit. On a really small model you can simply spiral a single piece of thread from yardarm to yardarm, spacing the turns appropriately and glue the sail on over it.

[mkmossop]

The diagram below shows robands made in one piece.  The roband is doubled and the loop passed through the sail from back to front and then the ends lead as shown in the diagram and are finished with a square knot at the top of the yard.

 

Not sure I can figure out how to tie that from the diagram, but I'll give it a try. Thanks for your help.

 

 

I cant imagine a need for all those eye splices between the spar and the sail, certainly not in a ship model where they will only serve to create a huge gap between the sail and the spar, and/or bizarre lumps. I believe there should be two robands in each cloth of the sail and if you are using thick thread you are going to wind up with a yard that looks ribbed. Err on the side of very thin robands. On an actual ship the line used for robands would not be thicker than your finger. If you use heavier stuff than that you will have the wrong look. You don't mention what ship you are building or what scale. On a model of such a scale that the yard is 12" wide or more you would have to show details- again, in my opinion. On a smaller scale ship you don't even- in my opinion- need to actually have the robands pierce the sail, they can simply be a turn around the yard and when you glue the sail over them they will look legit. On a really small model you can simply spiral a single piece of thread from yardarm to yardarm, spacing the turns appropriately and glue the sail on over it.

 

This is my model here:

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/3445-santa-maria-by-mkmossop-amati/

 

So are the robands too thick on the second picture I posted above? From what you said those look about right, or maybe a little too thick.

 

Are there any threads here where I can see how you did your robands?

[druxey]

See the pics I posted on your model log, MK.

[JerseyCity Frankie]

On my HMS Victory model I used some ordinary sewing thread and a needle. I sewed through the sail then tied the thread around the yard, puling the sail snug against the yard and I used a clove hitch to tie the ends. A drop of diluted glue or cyano, then when its dry I snipped off the ends as close to the knot as I could manage. The Victory model was 1/100 scale, a human figure would be 3/4" tall on this model so the roband has to be as small as I can manage it in order not to be out of scale. Figure how small the finger on the hand of the crewman would be and then match that diameter with thread. I chose a thread color that looks plausibly like rope but not a color close to the color of the yard since I want the robands to be visible if anyone is looking for them but not such a contrasting color that they are visible from across the room. There are a range of sandy, brown and black colored threads available wherever they sell thread.  You can see my sail construction in my HMS Victory build log the link to which is in my signature below this block of text.

[mkmossop]

Hey sorry for the late reply and thank your for your help .

 

Before I do the robands though I have to sew whatever this is called (the thread which fastens the rope to the sail).

 

 

Is there any specific way to sew these, or just do a simple loop around over and over?

Edited July 21, 2016 by mkmossop

[JerseyCity Frankie]

Thats the boltrope and it IS sewn to the sail on an actual ship. However the way it is done on a real ship is that for each stitch the needle is passed through the canvas within a half inch or 1/4" to the edge of the sail, then through the rope, then back through the sail. It NEVER goes AROUND the boltrope, it goes THROUGH the boltrope. The needle is passed THROUGH the rope in such a way that it will emerge from the rope from inside one of the grooves between the three strands of the rope (called the Score). It is then led back down to the canvas to form the next stitch. What is really important to understand is that the needle is led DOWN THE SCORE of the boltrope  to pierce the canvas again. When the next stitch is heaved tight, the bit of sailtwine that is coming up out of the bultrope is snugged down deep inside the score.The waxed sail twine used is thicker than sewing thread but much much thinner than a shoelace. I give this elaborate explanation to make it clear that the thread holding the boltrope to the sail is nearly invisible as no part of it is exposed to view. And I make this point to explain why I do not think boltropes on models of any scale should ever be sewn on with actual thread. Glue the boltrope on if you want it to look like the real thing. MANY people include the stitching on their models, and the stitches are very visible. Depending on your concept of "accuracy" you will have to decide for yourself if "accuracy" means the stitches must be on the model. The stitches ARE on the actual ship and that is why people include them on their models.But on the actual sail they are invisible to the eye at any distance greater than five feet or so.

Edited July 21, 2016 by JerseyCity Frankie

[mkmossop]

Oh ok... thanks for the informative post. I suppose I could try sewing through the bolt rope, but that would probably be pretty tricky. I've already glued the bolt ropes on... here's one of my sails.

 

[mkmossop]

Also what type of knot should I use for the robands? I can't find any good info on that.

[allanyed]

I would really be concerned about glued bolt rope parting from the sail.   Any good luck from anyone out there just gluing and what glue did you use?  No CA Please.  I would feel much better using micro thread of some kind even if does wind up not being noticed.   Lagartun, Benecchi, Wapsi and Roman Moser fly tying threads come as small as 0.028-0.033 mm diameter which is smaller than 1/4" at 1:48 scale.  Maybe a tad large for 1:96 scale.  Is it worth the trouble?   If it secures the bolt rope better than glue, maybe.......   The problem I see with this fine thread is a needle small enough to stay close enough to the edge of the sale without tearing out the edge or leaving relatively large holes that would be unsightly.

Allan

[mkmossop]

Hmm ok I'll look into those threads. I tried sewing some last night with some regular sized sewing thread and didn't think it looked too great, but maybe it would look better with thinner thread.

 

So from your post I take it most people here sew on the bolt rope?

 

From what I can tell it's actually glued on pretty well, but extra reinforcement would be bad. I just used regular wood glue.

[mtaylor]

 Allan,

 

What about fabric glue?  Some of them are waterproof and pretty durable as well as remaining flexible.  

[popeye2sea]

Also what type of knot should I use for the robands? I can't find any good info on that.

 

If you make your robands out of one piece of rope as shown in my diagram above you only need to put a square knot in the ends on top of the yard or jackstay.

[mkmossop]

Square knot... cool thanks I'll do one of those.

[allanyed]

Mark

 

Fabric glue may work, but I would worry that the bolt rope would start to part after some time.  The fabric glue is a great way to hold the rope in place while the sewing is done, so a good idea one way or another.  Thanks

 

Allan

Edited July 27, 2016 by allanyed

[mkmossop]

Hi Allen, do you have any close up pictures of sewing you've done for your bolt rope?