Soleil Royal by Hubac's Historian - Heller - An Extensive Modification and Partial Scratch-Build

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Hello Marc... 

 

I.

That sounds well, so the decks are on the safe side. I think about the DaFi VICTORY  he should drill some holes fot endescopic surgery in the lower deck... 

It is a real pitty to hide all this work!!! 

 

I can understand to build dummy gun casings into the lower decks - try a resinparts for the gun rigging like the complete deadey-rope-deadeye parts of several plastic kits... so you have got a ligth eyecatcher beside the carriages without the ammount of work Daniel had got into the ship. The red of the gun carriages and the light wood-pink of the blocks and tan of the rope may give some intersting effect to the deck if you spot beside the barrel into the deck. Between the guns there are some kind of cupboards the may help to fix the deck above. And the grating can easily be iimitated by masking and spraying - look on your recent Ancre calender sheed... the red barrier in the middle framed between ahorn coloured planks makes a gread deal. In my huble opinion the flat vault along the hole deck is woth the work. And in the middle battery you have to bild it at all... as the ridiments of the detailing and colourshape can be seen through the bars latticework easyly from the sides on the upper deck - as the flat panks do only give little camouflage to two points of view.

 

II. a)

THE BOOK IS THE TV OF SMART PEOPLE! 

 

I found in thevGerman book  „Versaille der Meere“ the discurs about the decoration of RL aaaaand your SR! Bernd Morath says that LeBrune makes on the top transom a citatiation of his own work in Versailles!!!  So this morning I followed his track and found the „Fountain de Appollo“... ...you kow this feeling, I-do-really-know-this... but you cannot catch it! This it was and now the light switched on! 

 

I think besides the more breath of the transom (2nd door ect.) you will need a quadriga of horses being more structural and sculptural than moulded flat in the kit. So you might have to think about the structural elements to strengthen the top part of the transom due to the pure weight of the oak sculptures (as I'll have to do , too)? I do follow the problem-producing-&-wors-making sectence of Werner Zimmermann: „Could this have worked in real life?“ In my point of view the hole transom with its balkonies just nailed to the side galerys and hull would have rushed into the sea like a elevator or falling with a splash in to the sea like a drawbridge... so we have to do something. (By the way please don't waste your money into the LE PHENIX Planset of the AMM of Paris from the 60/70th - it is just the drawing for the later heller kit and without further helpful detailling - only heltful for PHENIX bilders due to the rigging.) Even last Oct.  in Rochefort we could see embrassingly detailed part models of the SR - but sadly  without structural strengtion - and I only found one pic ot the other side (with s.b.'s bottom as a dark background 😵)

As you can see your decoation grit/lattice work is a great detail and makes a massive impression to the hole set of work. You are on the very right way, Marc!

 

II. b)

Don't worry about my “wasted“ time - it was just my by-catch to the ROYAL LOUIS and ROYAL DAUPHIN-Projects (perchance MONARQUE and a hand full of others - I'm still in datamining)  based on the Heller-SR-hull. The hole large figures were removed from RL-1668 back to the worksheets and drilled out to safe wight at ROYAL LOUIS butand not removed! And after the learning period of 1665-1668 the deco till than used for one ship was shared onto two or three - also due to the costs and lack of sculptures the went away from Colbert's order to build the most decorated ships of the world for the sun kings first rank - “rang primeure extraordinere“.

 

By the way there was no mixture of highly decorated bronze and black iron ordonaces - have youto think about this on your SR? 

 

 

I now can say

 

“Your SR is the first LOW-DECO two-bit ship of the Sunking's Royal Navy!!!“ 😉

 

And I'll build later the reason for this... so for your ship no money was left 😀😂

 

So I hope you take this bad news as a real man and show further progress as we love your astonishing hand's work, Marc! 

 

Thanks for your good set of humor.😇

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Here the link to Achjafo's wonderful book rewiev:

 

https://www.wettringer-modellbauforum.de/forum/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=64079

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Picture added and text developed further due to the inside view of the transom.

[Hubac's Historian]

Hello Heirich!

 

The funny thing is that I did a GOOGLE search for “Versailles de la Mer,” because I had mentioned someday writing a book by that name.  Well, this German title is what I discovered, so it appears someone beat me to the copywrite.  Based on the review you linked to, it certainly sounds like it has some useful data for mining!

 

I was at my father’s, this weekend, and I brought home with me all of the kit decking, as well as the lower gun-deck cannon barrels, and all of the port lids.  These are perfect small work projects to bring to work with me.

 

All of SR’s guns would have been bronze, and with that in mind, I will work up a darker bronze basecoat, over which I will apply a semi-transparent ver-de-gris wash.  I have an idea that maybe I can improve the scale of the kit barrels by sandwiching .030 styrene sheet between the halves.   Because the kit barrels have wonderful detailing with beautiful fleur-de-lis ornaments cast onto the barrels.  I think the ver-de-gris will catch these details.

 

I’m still busily painting the lower hull.  I have the port side painted and distress-washed, but none of the wales, or other details picked out yet.  Over a large surface area, the color and tonal  qualities of the VDB are exactly what I was hoping for.  It really looks great.

 

I have signed on to do a table demonstration of this technique at the North East Joint Clubs meeting in New London, CT, on Saturday April 27th.

 

I will be using the kit upper decks to demonstrate just how easy it is to apply a few different types if washcoat, and the instantaneous and near effortless patina that results.  I may or may not bring the actual hull because it still won’t be assembled into anything stable, at that point.  Nevertheless, I would be able to transport her in her new custom drydock/build-box.  It would be a fun time to really introduce the project to a wider audience, so I will consiser that, as the conference draws near.

 

If any of you will be attending, stop by my demonstration table and say “hello.”

Edited March 17, 2019 by Hubac's Historian

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

That is great work, Marc. I  do think we will see a plenty of fine work from your side.

The SR is golden kit, an old lady but wounderful mouldbuilders work.

 

Styrenesheet is a clever option I tink about sanding away the barrel under the Fleur-de-lis and fix them on three master barrels. So there will be 36-, 24- ,12-pounders ready to cast new barrels for all the later projects.

 

Sorry not coming to NewLondon. But I'm highly interested in the pictures.

 

Take care!

Edited March 18, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer

[Hubac's Historian]

Well, the move to Brooklyn has kept me busy - consolidating and replacing old furniture that doesn’t work in the new (smaller) space.  Lately, though, I’ve been able to make some progress on the model.

 

The first order of business was to create a protective build-box for the model, for the next how-ever-many-years it takes to build her.  The model, itself, will be temporarily mounted to a removable platten (the unpainted plywood).  I was able to make pretty good use of an Albert Brenet print of Soleil Royal (Thank you, Neko 😀) in action at the Battle de Beveziers, in order to dress the box up a bit:

Here are a few shots of the lower hull with the distress washing complete on the port side, and base-coating underway on the starboard side:

I am also completing the modification/detailing of the gunport lids.  While I won’t paint them, install the lanyard rings or place them on the ship until much later, this is one of those good, small-work projects that I can carry around and work on in my downtime:

While I continue with the painting, at home, I will soon begin my next small-work project, which will be an attempt to scale-up the kit gun barrels, a bit, for the lower and middle batteries.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Hubac's Historian

[shipmodel]

Hi Marc - 

 

Welcome to the Borough of Churches.  The new hip, lively, foodie - affordable - alternative to the concrete canyons.  Best of all, we get to have a view of the skyline of Manhattan, while they only get to look at Brooklyn!

 

That looks like a perfect place to work on and display the SR while in the shipyard.  The work done on the bow joinder is excellent as well, and the wooden trompe l'eoil effect is very realistic.

 

I wonder, though, about the raised fleur de lis on the inside of the gunport lids.  I don't recall seeing them there in any illustrations, although my depth of knowledge does not match yours.  If they were there, wouldn't they be painted, rather than being a carving that would be frequently bumped and damaged by the cannon muzzle? 

 

As for a workshop in a small apartment, read through Chapter 3 in Ship Modelers' Shop Notes (vol. 1) for some tips from modelers who did great work on a card table or small desk.  There is even a long article about building a dedicated custom cabinet with doors and drawers and cubbyholes that house hundreds of tools and supplies.  Lewis Britton provided not only photos, but measured scale drawings of all the parts and even his joinery details.  I wouldn't expect anyone today to build one, but a modification of an IKEA cabinet might be possible.

 

 

 

 

 

[Hubac's Historian]

I appreciate the kind words, Dan!

 

Well, Brooklyn is certainly a feast for both the eyes and belly - and, increasingly, populated by concrete canyons.  Affordability, though, is a relative concept.  In either case, we are thrilled to be there.

 

Now, the presence of fleur-de-lis on the inside of the port lids would have been a pretty sure detail.  Whether they were merely painted, or existed as full relief carvings is a matter open to debate.  Here are a series of contemporary portraits that, in close-up, seem to suggest relief carvings.  Granted, the enlargements are not clear:

 

In the early years of the First Marine, and particularly for the prestige ships of the Premier Rang Extraordinaire, it would seem likely that no expense would be spared.  As the French navy evolved toward the Second Marine - 1693 and thereafter - the likelihood that these ornaments may have been painted-on seems plausible, as well; apparently, this is how Mr. Lemineur chose to represent his monograph models of the St. Philippe.  Although, in fairness, they may be low-relief trompe l’eoil.

Would a re-constructed SR, in 1689, still have had carved port ornaments?  I can’t say for sure, however, I don’t think there is enough contemporary evidence to definitively say that they weren’t carved.

Soleil Royal was the greatest of the prestige ships, so I chose to go with carvings.  Of course, this is also a convenient excuse for applying more of the ornaments that I worked hard to create and chase, after casting.

 

At the very least the Vasa, though a good deal earlier, provides concrete evidence for lid carvings.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Hubac's Historian

[yancovitch]

the immaculata of modelers......even the case is a masterpiece.........appreciation from a mediocre 😀

[shipmodel]

I see that they are a well researched detail, and certainly look good there.

Always nice to learn something new.

 

Dan

[Hubac's Historian]

Thank you, kindly Vic - and you are my better in many ways; a master of scale, an eye for fair lines, resourceful in finding novel ways to represent fine detail, and an architect of working sailing ship models!

[yancovitch]

oh my gosh!....that's too much! 😁....i have a terribly low self esteem....you're putting a cramp on my superior humbleness 😁

Edited April 3, 2019 by yancovitch

[Hubac's Historian]

Good.  You deserve a reality check😀

[EJ_L]

Glad to hear your move went well. Always good when that is over with, though unpacking can also feel like a never ending chore.

 

I would agree that from what I have seen on the 17th century ships, especially the first rates, the inner lid decorations appear to be carved. One thing to keep in mind when looking at the spacing is that on an actual 1:1 scale, these carvings may only be 1-2 inches thick and therefore not a concern for the space of the gun barrel which was often stored with the barrel secured in the upmost elevation and lashed to the bulkhead to prevent movement. 

 

On a model however, we are looking at scales of 1:77, 1:87: 1:90, 1:100 etc., 1-2 inches can be a .5mm or less. Therefore, the carvings are often made oversized in order to have them show any level of detail. Sometimes scale accuracy gets sacrificed for artistic expression. (Treenails are a prime example of this) 

[Hubac's Historian]

I have certainly sacrificed scale accuracy for detail, and some sense of depth, on the carvings.  Little by little, though, technique improves.  I appreciate the thought, EJ.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

On 4/4/2019 at 2:29 PM, EJ_L said:

Glad to hear your move went well. Always good when that is over with, though unpacking can also feel like a never ending chore.

 

I would agree that from what I have seen on the 17th century ships, especially the first rates, the inner lid decorations appear to be carved. One thing to keep in mind when looking at the spacing is that on an actual 1:1 scale, these carvings may only be 1-2 inches thick and therefore not a concern for the space of the gun barrel which was often stored with the barrel secured in the upmost elevation and lashed to the bulkhead to prevent movement. 

 

On a model however, we are looking at scales of 1:77, 1:87: 1:90, 1:100 etc., 1-2 inches can be a .5mm or less. Therefore, the carvings are often made oversized in order to have them show any level of detail. Sometimes scale accuracy gets sacrificed for artistic expression. (Treenails are a prime example of this) 

@EJ_L thats an interesting & important fact. So a solution in PE made from the 1/24 decorational drawings of the Lemoneur plans may be for all of us Heller-rebuilders our way through it...

 

@Hubac's Historian

The other possibility is to cut them with a small pair of nail scissors out of thicker aluminum foil (as from a cream cheese or jogurt cups) - individuality by handmade workmans craftship instead of industrial mass production by using PE...

The parts may be given some deep by forming them with a pen (as done in school with copper foil from behind).

 

Here the scaled drawing the sun has no 5mm radius 😕 ...

And the 81 holes to be drilled into the inside for the nailing - just using 0,1mm holes, filled with Revell-aqua silver?

This may be best to use resin, cast, cut and glue it? You could use a coordinate drilling table. 

Edited April 8, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
...added ideas about nailing.

[shipmodel]

Hi Marc, Heinrich - 

 

Can you answer a question that I have had for a while, ever since seeing an illustration of French gunport lids with all those nails.

Were there really that many, or has there been some artistic license that exaggerates this detail?

With so many nails the wood would have to compress quite a bit to allow for the size of the shanks.

If you drill them out, you create a line of perforations that will risk splitting along the grain.

 

What am I missing? 

 

Dan

[Hubac's Historian]

A reasonable question, Dan.  I’m not sure that I have an answer to the issues of compression/drilling, etc.  Yet a field of lid-liner nails appears to be a documented detail of 17th C. practice.

 

the Vasa:

And the modern reconstruction of Batavia:

I’m sure if I search my image database, I could pull up a few VDV, the Elder portraits that show the detail in the 1650’s.

 

Perhaps Lemineur takes artistic license, but maybe not as much as it may seem.

 

If anything, I am surely under-representing them.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Hubac's Historian

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

@shipmodel

There are several gunlids with those an amount of nails... I'll poste lateron pictures from gugsomenport lids out of some Boudriot and Delacroux plans... these were the only I've got. Mot to be referring onto myself I'll surf around to find pictures of museums models or drawings of contemporary French plans or plans of caputred French ships in the NMM or Danish-lists. 

[shipmodel]

Marc - 

 

Thanks for the picture of the Vasa.  This is primary evidence that can be relied on. 

It clearly shows all those nail heads with a thickly raised carving, just as you have modeled it.

 

But in the photo I think I am seeing that these nails do not attach the two layers of thick planking together, but are tacks holding on a flat metal sheet.

This is similar to how copper sheets were attached to the hull in later years.

I can imagine that when the lids were fully lifted the sun would reflect beautifully off the polished surface with a golden lion in the center.

This solves the problem of compression or weakening of the lid itself and gives a logical reason for the look of the thing.

 

That clears it up for me, if my interpretation is correct. 

 

Dan 

[Hubac's Historian]

I am doubtful of that, Dan.  I’m not sure you would have the practical means of hammering out uniform sheets of copper, for this purpose, at this early stage in the 17th C.

 

I think what you are looking at is the patinated surface of the preserved lid liner, after it’s 20-year poly-ethylene glycol bath.  If they were copper, or had there been copper there, I think you would see evidence of ver-de-gris staining of the lids and surounding timber.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Hubac's Historian

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Hmmmm, Marc @Hubac's Historian

 

The gun lids of the

good old VASA was my first guess, too. 

 

Are thez tincladed inside or is it the conservation-fluid looking like a film?

 

The lion speaks clearly for you deeply crafted cravings version, Marc! 

[shipmodel]

I didn't explain myself well.  I don't think the metal would have been copper, but some metal that would have polished up well.  It was only the method of tacking a thin metal sheet with a lot of flat-headed nails that I was comparing. 

 

The Spanish were doing this with lead sheets for their ships in the 1500s, the Romans much earlier and even the Egyptians had been working copper.  By the 16th century the European armorers were making plate armor on a regular basis.  Look up a History Channel show about the Greenwich steel armor that was made for Henry VIII in 1511.

 

If it is the lid liner, what would it have been made of?

 

[amateur]

There is no liner on the lids, it is the patina of the cnservation fluids.

 

Jan

[Hubac's Historian]

Hey Guys,

 

With regard to the Vasa lid - the shiny appearance of the lid lining is the result of the last step of PEG preservation; museum conservators used hot air guns to melt away excess PEG from every wooden surface of the ship.  The resulting shiny patina of the linings matches that of the rest of the ship.

 

I presume that the linings are made of the same oak as the hull planking, albeit in a thinner scantling.  When I saw the Vasa,  around 2000, I don’t recall noticing anything unusual about the lid linings.  To my eye, metalic linings would have seemed unusual.  I am far from an expert, though.  These are just my observations.

 

The other consideration is that the individual plank seams on the Vasa lid lining are clearly visible; if they were sheathed in metal, it stands to reason that they would not be.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Hmmmm, Marc @Hubac's Historian

I leaved through my libary finding dissatisfying news:

 

At 1693 one single gun lid had hat 10 square geaded nails in 20 rows.

 

Here shown on SAINT PHILIPPE...

 

 

Mr.Lemineur gives us a red and brass/gold colour scheme. There is only one "proof of concept" I was able to figure out. So we can say there may be a second independent source:

 

 

The next evidence of close nailhead covered lid insides I found with Mr. Delacroix:

The lids are not drawn separedly (but I just leaved through the plans sides)

So here we all can see that even the vertically separated lids were fully covered on their inside with nail heads. The original drawing I leaved threugh in HISTORY OF THE FRENCH FRIGATE was the young Olliviers masterpice of  midcut drawing of NEREÏDE of 1723 - what astonishingly doesn't show not a single enclosed gun port lid   - 

 

also any plank in the deck is drawn with the surrounding masts and knees. Dissapointing in so far as

 

a)

I wasn't able to find any contemporary source for the narrowly nailhead covered gunpot lids inside...

 

b)

the number of nails in much higher than I thought - and will bring a plenty of labour to all of us. A resin cast may be a helpful work arround.

 

 

In the very last monography there are not any gunport lids - but may there be some more importent discovery for all of us?

There are only gunports on the oilpainting on the very outside dustcover print. 

And the blue and gold looks like blue fabric-covered with golden embroided f.-d.-ys!!!  May this fabric put onto the planks under the craved trallis?

 

 

P.S.:

In this beautyfull hand crafted drawings ther were no lids were placed in the gunports, too.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Added some details and killed some orthographical faults.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

@Hubac's Historian

@shipmodel

@EJ_L

 

 

And there has been royal blue clothing in the baroque:

Edited April 8, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer

[shipmodel]

OK - I guess we are not working with a metal sheet held on by tacks.

That brings me back to square one, where I still do not understand the reason for all those nails, much less how they penetrate through the layers of the lid.

 

Thanks for the new information.

 

Dan

 

 

[Hubac's Historian]

My only guess at the rationale for it would be that more nails would minimize movement between layers of the lid - stabilizing it, much the same way that glue does for alternating layers of plywood.  You would definitely want the lids to close securely, but open easily enough.  Maybe this construction facilitated that.

[mtaylor]

9 hours ago, Heinrich der Seefahrer said:

 

So here we all can see that even the vertically separated lids were fully covered on their inside with nail heads. The original drawing I leaved threugh in HISTORY OF THE FRENCH FRIGATE was the young Olliviers masterpice of  midcut drawing of NEREÏDE of 1723 - what astonishingly doesn't show not a single enclosed gun port lid   - 

As I understand it, French frigates of the 1700's only had a port lid on the very first port which didn't have a gun in place.  That port was used for anchor handling.  As for the rest of the ports, they used bucklers if the weather dictated such.  There are some other details different in the frigates from the ships of the line.

 

The ports on the ships of the line with the nail heads.  I wonder of the inner planking the carving was on was rather thin, more like a backing to hold the carving?  Then the nails would be there to hold the backing on.   I note that there's no drawing showing how the carving was affixed to the port.  Come to think of it, I've never seen any details on how any carvings were affixed to the hull.     

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

3 hours ago, mtaylor said:

As I understand it, French frigates of the 1700's only had a port lid on the very first port which didn't have a gun in place.  That port was used for anchor handling.  As for the rest of the ports, they used bucklers if the weather dictated such.  There are some other details different in the frigates from the ships of the line.

 

The ports on the ships of the line with the nail heads.  I wonder of the inner planking the carving was on was rather thin, more like a backing to hold the carving?  Then the nails would be there to hold the backing on.   I note that there's no drawing showing how the carving was affixed to the port.  Come to think of it, I've never seen any details on how any carvings were affixed to the hull.     

But on the oilpainting it is clearly visable that there are lids above any gunport... 😳

[mtaylor]

The painting is from the 1600's I believe.   The reference to the 1744 la Renommee would be correct for that time period.  French builders/designers made lots of changes even from ship to ship in the same class.  Some changes were applied to other ships, some weren't.   

 

I've run into that problem with my Licorne.   Originally looked similar to Renommee (8 pdr frigate).  It was reworked heavily and ended up looking closer to Belle Poule.   The masting at the rebuild was, shall we say "unique".  The masting sizes were the same as la Venus, an 18 pdr of 1782.  Oh.. no port lids on it either.