Soleil Royal by Hubac's Historian - Heller - An Extensive Modification and Partial Scratch-Build

[kirill4]

Hi Marc,

results of your "paintings jobs"/weathering and distress effects - looks good! very good!... I like it...

would be very interesting to look at completed painting/weathering...

All The Best!

Kirill

Edited February 10, 2019 by kirill4

[kirill4]

Hi Marc,

You mentioned" Van Dyke Brown oil paint"... didn't know/ never use oil paints for weathering effect/ abt this paint...try to find in internet,what is it... they said, this paint very difficult in drying...like never became dry,even in thinest film...???

How do you manage it?

 

[Hubac's Historian]

Hi Kirill,

 

Yes, I’ve been using Windsor and Newton’s Van Dyke Brown oil paint for artists.  This is part of Herbert Tomesan’s weathering protocol, in which he advises to brush it on heavy like shoe-pollish, and then wipe away as much as possible.

 

Really, the paint effectively stains the underlying acrylic, and there is very little paint left on the surface.  Now, yes, in the planking seams there will be a heavier accumulation, and this may take relatively longer to cure.  But the wiped and burnished (with a coarse chip brush) surface is not at all tacky; you can handle it without leaving prints, etc.

 

When I met Herbert in 2003, he showed me the models he was making for the Texel Roads diorama; his results were astounding.  I felt like Gulliver holding these perfectly crafted plastic ship models that looked like real weathered wood.  The process is so simple that I was skeptical that it would work, and yet, with very little effort it yields a surface with great depth and character.

 

I think one could create even more depth with a somewhat streaky application of two different but complimentary brown acrylics, before applying the VDB.  For my purposes though - SR’s deadworks would have been painted with this ventre-de-biche color - this is perfectly satisfactory.  I’m probably overdoing it a little, but I like it.

 

I had thought about using a fixative top coat, but I don’t want to lose the surface sheen that I have achieved.  Given enough time, the paint will cure fully on its own.  Because I can handle it without any problems, I’m not too concerned about it.

 

In fact, a topcoat before the paint has fully cured might cause other problems.

 

I think that once I have blacked over the wales and the boot-topping, I will brush over them with acrylic dullcoat because the acrylic is a little too shiny for these details.  Other than that, though, time is your friend.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Hubac's Historian

[Hubac's Historian]

FYI - I’m working right now, and decided to test a crease where the wale joins the hull.  There was some accumulation of VDB in that crease, so I pressed hard with a Q-tip, and it didn’t pick up any VDB paint residue.  Maybe the Windsor and Newton has more/better driers in it?  I don’t know, but it seems to have cured.

[kirill4]

Hi Marc,

Thank You very much for the answer, now is clear...I was afraid abt long drying time of this stain, but looks everything is OK !

I saw fotos of Herbert's  models  for the Texel Roads diorama( save it as bookmarks/ one of my lovely)-they looks realy cool(specialy weathering wood effect)!!! 

I use dry pastels,acrylic paints and acrylic stains(maker Plaid/FolkArts) for weathering,  they drying in minutes, but never used oil paint as stain medium....and it is  just iteresting to see how it works on your model...

All The Best!

Kirill

[Hubac's Historian]

I’ve been thinking about dry pastels/powders because I want to simulate the water staining beneath the scuppers, and maybe also run-off from the channels.

 

Do you have any advice here about particular products, application techniques and sealing?

Edited February 11, 2019 by Hubac's Historian

[druxey]

Just catching up on your opus magnum, Marc. Very impressive 'digging' for accuracy of reconstruction. I am curious about one thing, though - the lower gun deck: why would it need so many scuppers? As it is below the weather deck, surely the ship was not that wet?

[Hubac's Historian]

Well, Druxey, that is a very good question.

 

The actual number I settled on is somewhat arbitrary, but I based my decision to include more, rather than less, on my observation of various Van de Velde drawings, as well as the models of Herbert Tomesan; those models are very close studies of VDV drawings.  Then, there are re-constructions, like Batavia, that have four scuppers along the lower deck.

 

 

I see your point, though, about the weather deck - where it would make more practical sense to have more than less.  In fact, the monographie models of Le Saint Philippe, show fewer along the lower deck.  Perhaps, on future models, it would be more accurate to show fewer scuppers, here.

[kirill4]

5 hours ago, Hubac's Historian said:

I’ve been thinking about dry pastels/powders because I want to simulate the water staining beneath the scuppers, and maybe also run-off from the channels.

 

Do you have any advice here about particular products, application techniques and sealing?

Hi Marc ,

there is nothing special I think...just use any dry artistic  pastels, must be not oil pastels...made powder from it ,mix with water-alkohol-a very small drop of any dishwash detergent...that all...apply on surface/ area which need to be stained,remove excess of staff with cotton stick or smthng similar( wet brush???)...if applied too much...made correction as desired...after drying , could be fixed with ... acrylic matt varnish ( I use )...actualy, this stuff ,if applied...one time ... than could not be removed easily,even without any fixation liquid... :)))...

in the begining,I try to seal it with varnish...but later on ,just use it without any sealing attempts...

[shipmodel]

Hi Marc - 

 

Very realistic wood effects.  I have used similar techniques, but your method gets very close to perfect.

 

Druxey - would the lower deck be where the discharges for the bilge pumps would be?  No need to pump water any higher than needed.

 

Dan

[Hubac's Historian]

Kirill, what purpose does the dishwashing detergent serve?

[kirill4]

don't know exactly...:))),  asume ,due to there are those of the detergent components ...surfactants...which make this mix of pastels powder and water more stable _ and more "active" on surface?...but not sure...

I ,ve found this "receipt" somewhere in internet long time ago...it was from model "washing" tips and tricks...but I use it in wrong way :))) not as "washing", but mostly for " weathering " :))) my paint works...make them less bright and more stained...if I could say that...

[Hubac's Historian]

Got it!  Well, it certainly warrants some experimentation on my paint samples.  This pastel route may also be the way to achieve the streaky algea look that I want for the thin strip of white stuff, at the waterline.

[kirill4]

yes...need to experiment... need smthng like 10-20 ml volume of such solution- mix powder - water-spirit-very small drop of dishwash detergent(?fairy?or similar brand...i think doesn,t matter which one...some chip brand...)

how much need to make powder:) ... not too much...gram/less... it works good , dark powder(black-red-brown mix) on bright surface ...or viseversa greish colors on black ... ...but of couse, concentration better determine by experiments...

 

[SJSoane]

Hi Marc

 

Many apologies, this is the first I came across your build site. I will be looking in regularly now!

 

Mark

[Hubac's Historian]

Hey Mark!  No apologies are necessary;  you are getting in on the lower deck, so to speak, as far as the actual build is concerned.  I’m glad to see you here, and I hope the project will remain interesting to you, as it evolves.

 

I’m in Brooklyn, now, and still settling in, so there hasn’t been any ship work, as yet.  We have a club meeting next week, though, and I’ll be picking her up then, if not sooner.

 

Thank you to all for your likes, comments and looking in!

[SJSoane]

Marc,

 

I just managed to read through the entire log. Very impressive research and thinking. Now I understand your name "Hubac's Historian"; well earned!

 

Mark

[Hubac's Historian]

Thanks, Mark!  The name started out as a bit of alliterative fun, but 26 pages later it has sort of become true.  Thank you for taking the time to read through all of my tangents.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Hello Marc,

 

amazing and really great progress you did!!!

 

Due tue the colour blue I found two ends of the possible ways to biuild the SR... The realistic and the idealistic. This dutch side shows only this very single picture of the SRkit - but it might give you some impression. (I'm unlucky by the  universal grain all over the hull - I'd have "grained" any plank seperatly - a terrible work... but isn't the result worth travelling all the rocky road?) I just placed an idealistic and the weathered side-by-side to show the brutal contrast what is able to be made with this kit. 

The used "blue on the side gallery is very close to your shown Versailles-greyblue... ...as far as I remember basicly made from verdigris - and much more chaeper the milled lapis lazuli imported (from todays Afghanistan) about the silk road! 

 

One guy on britmodeller was able to use goldleaf to praise the kit... a way you will do the coloring also?

 

I've no further ideas as to stay and to stay in astionishment about your work. (Memo to me close your open mouth... )

 

 

[Hubac's Historian]

Heinrich - thank you for your kind words!

 

Yes, I have also seen this weathered version of the kit, and it seems as though the modeler has done a similar wash and wipe with oil-based Van Dyke Brown, or something similarly dark.  It still looks good - even without scraping off the raised grain - but I prefer the texturing and shading that the coarse sand paper imparts. 

 

I will be using two shades of blue; most of the frieze backdrop will be a lighter Cerulean blue, which in the 17th Century would be derived from copper salts.  I will make sparing use of Ultra-Marine to highlight various aspects of the lower frieze and tafferal.

 

I will not, however, “gild” all mouldings and ornamental work, as a matter of preference; even if that’s what would have likely been done to the real ship, I think it comes off as a little bit overwhelming; all that painstaking work gets lost in a sea of gold.  Instead, the frieze lattice and most upper bulwark port frames will be done in yellow ocher, with a very light distress wash of walnut ink stain.

 

Gold will be reserved for the ornaments, themselves, because I think this presentation will make them pop more.

 

I have brought the model home, now, and I will resume painting soon.  Maybe tonight, even.  I am also making a protective build-box to completely house the model, until I get into the masting and rigging phase.

 

Ironically, though, I will make the lower sections of each mast (in wood) fairly early on, so that I can step and rake them properly, and play with the proportions until I am satisfied with the run of the shrouds and the heights of the lower tops.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Marc, that sounds as an concept. So I think tit will be an interesting moment to see yout testing parts coloured. As you don't build any underteaterearts, there is a plenty of work you don't need to do and time you will safe. 

Do you reinforce any parts of the hull and sides due to the stress of the rigging?

What will you change onto the hull at all?

 

 

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Here frpm the Rochefort convention convention the transom of your SR...

 

It is very interesting how much even this two part models differ.

hth

 

Edited March 7, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Added picture

[Hubac's Historian]

Hello Heinrich,

 

You are right that I will save time by not fitting out the interior, in the style of Dafi’s Victory, for example.  I am tempted, though, to fabricate cable bitts and the cable manger just for the hell of it.

 

The hull will be mounted to a 1/16” styrene platten that will be gussetted (I’ve already made a series of gusset patterns that follow the interior shape of the hull, up to the lower gun deck level), and cross-braced to resist the wracking forces of the masting and rigging.

 

I’m pretty sure that I can still use the kit-supplied lower decks by simply separating the outboard gun sections from the inboard section, to accomodate the increased breadth of the hull.  It will all be securely fixed to styrene “beams” which will give the structure added rigidity.

 

I will carry on like that up to the main deck level, which will be completely scratch-built, with the appropriate camber and layout of plank shifts, with their strakes tapering narrower fore and aft.

 

There are many custom alterations and additions that are yet to come; among them, I plan to represent the ship’s stoves beneath the forecastle deck.  I will make period appropriate deck railings, as opposed to the 19th century clipper ship railings that come with the kit.  All visible guns will be rigged.  The ship will be alive with figures, etc and so forth.

[amateur]

On 2/10/2019 at 11:26 PM, kirill4 said:

Hi Marc,

You mentioned" Van Dyke Brown oil paint"... didn't know/ never use oil paints for weathering effect/ abt this paint...try to find in internet,what is it... they said, this paint very difficult in drying...like never became dry,even in thinest film...???

How do you manage it?

 

Hi Kirill,

 

check this one: he also uses oil paint (over an humbrol enamell base)

https://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/t4152f137-Prince-Airfix-nach-Van-de-Velde-2.html

 

Jan

 

[EJ_L]

So what you are saying is that you plan to keep things simple.... 😛 

 

I may be far off base but I didn't think that the deck planks narrowed forward and aft. Obviously the hull does as they have to due to the curvature of the ship, but I was of the understanding that the strakes for the deck remained the same width across the entire length. I have seen them terminate differently with some simply stopping where they intersect the waterways and others that notch into a sort of perimeter board that follows the curves of the bow. I do not know the appropriate terminology off the top of my head.

 

 

[Hubac's Historian]

Jan, thank you for posting that link to the Airfix Prince; really a wonderful model.  This is one that I started modifying over ten years ago, but then our first child came, and that was the end of hobby time.

 

Because of the relative scale difference, I have considered converting the Prince to represent the fire ship, in my diorama, that sets Soleil Royal ablaze; that idea, though, would require me to pierce my ship with cannon shot, and to generally represent the savagry of the battle.  Well, I want her to look a little grimy, but I don’t think I can go that far.

 

Like you, EJ, I had long been accustomed to thinking of forecastle and quarter deck planking that is nibbed into the margin plank.  The purpose of doing this is to prevent long, thin plank ends that taper to a sharp point, as these areas would be particularly prone to rot.

 

I began to notice, though, that the Tanneron models, as well as the best modern arsenal models show continuous strakes of deck planking that taper towards the bow and stern.

 

Here are the decks of Le Brilliant:

 

This is also a prominent feature of the St. Philippe mongraph:

 

Later, when I go home, I will see whether Mr. Lemineur offers any insight into what appears to be a particularly French design feature.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Hubac's Historian

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Marc, the decks planking is completely right - the question is birch, ahorn vaneer or polysterol?

 

The canons you can see on the upper, poop and f'c'stldeck? Or do you close the lids of the non-fireing board side?

 

Do you glue the hullsides on a solid 1/2" sheets to reinforce the hulls stability?

 

Im really unlucky and not satisfied with those gunbarrels. As we both do need 1/100 or 1/90 guns iron and the decorated bronze ones - we could keep some uoint venture in mind. 🙂

As we will have some troble with the decoration onto the same barrels we use for the iron casted guns. Or do you think there is some measurable difference in 1/100? (K.I.S.S. ...keep is short and simple) perhaps this pushes the project a bit.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

As you don'tfollow Dafi's Victory Dafissm you do biild the 

Great Cabin and some other visuable rooms like the bedroom? 😉 or open the doors? 

 

As you build her in the battle alle the furnitire is under deck and we can see the wooden floor decor. 

Edited March 10, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

On 3/6/2019 at 12:30 AM, Hubac's Historian said:

Heinrich - thank you for your kind words!

 

Yes, I have also seen this weathered version of the kit, and it seems as though the modeler has done a similar wash and wipe with oil-based Van Dyke Brown, or something similarly dark.  It still looks good - even without scraping off the raised grain - but I prefer the texturing and shading that the coarse sand paper imparts. 

 

I will be using two shades of blue; most of the frieze backdrop will be a lighter Cerulean blue, which in the 17th Century would be derived from copper salts.  I will make sparing use of Ultra-Marine to highlight various aspects of the lower frieze and tafferal.

 

I will not, however, “gild” all mouldings and ornamental work, as a matter of preference; even if that’s what would have likely been done to the real ship, I think it comes off as a little bit overwhelming; all that painstaking work gets lost in a sea of gold.  Instead, the frieze lattice and most upper bulwark port frames will be done in yellow ocher, with a very light distress wash of walnut ink stain.

 

Gold will be reserved for the ornaments, themselves, because I think this presentation will make them pop more.

 

I have brought the model home, now, and I will resume painting soon.  Maybe tonight, even.  I am also making a protective build-box to completely house the model, until I get into the masting and rigging phase.

 

Ironically, though, I will make the lower sections of each mast (in wood) fairly early on, so that I can step and rake them properly, and play with the proportions until I am satisfied with the run of the shrouds and the heights of the lower tops.

That, Marc sounds to me as thebroadmap for a grest and realistic model - by avoiding an overgolded and cobalt-bluelooking like the  caricatured collection cup of aunt Mary... the realistic touch can be given by shadowing with  the Citardel inks andand drybrushing vice versa. I  played a bit with on my golden putto - after 4 days they should be dry. Perchance you get some ideas from this o-o-t-project.

 

 

 

 

 

[Hubac's Historian]

Hi Heinrich!

 

In all likelihood, I will make my decks from styrene sheet that I scribe in with plank lines and joints, and then scratch the surface with coarse sandpaper for wood grain.  I liked one of my lighter paint work ups, and think it would make for a realistic looking deck.  I think I used walnut wash on that sample, instead of the VDB.

 

I will build this model with all guns blazing.  No closed ports.  I will not spend any time fitting out interior cabins, though.  I am very familiar with Dafi’s excellent Victory, but I do not wish to take it to that level.

 

It might be interesting to do a larger scale model (maybe 1:50) of the coffered great cabin ceiling, which could be displayed alongside the diorama.  During the survey of the ship, in 1688, a sketch of this ceiling was made with descriptions of the various portraiture, labeled A-G.  If I could somehow get a sense for what those portraits might have looked like, then maybe I could re-create them, in miniature, in their corresponding panels of the ceiling.  At least, with this pesentation, one would really be able to see and get a sense for how the interior of these great ships was fitted out.

 

I, too, am not that thrilled with the kit gun barrels because they are too spindly and lack the appropriate scale.  Someone once referenced an excellent source for model ship chandlery that had really excellent representations of Soleil Royal’s cannons.  I thought to order an assortment of scales to see which might look best at each level of the battery.  Of course, that link is buried somewhere in the 26 pages of this build-log.  I will have to take a look.

 

I only need dummy barrels for the lower and middle decks.  The main thing is the scale of the guns.   All Van de Velde portraits give an excellent sense for the heft of the artillery, and Heller’s efforts fall far short, here.

 

For reference, Doris is now completing the artillery for her excellent Royal Katherine.  Everything about her guns is spectacular, and frankly - amazing.  But the thing that is most satisfying, IMO, is the scale; her guns look right, poking out from the ship’s sides.

 

Michel Saunier and Marc Yeu went partners on a series of cannon for their respective SR builds.  The scales they are working in are different, but the castings they ultimately produced are magnificently detailed and correspond exactly to the one remaining gun from SR.  Again, though, for this project I think that is going a bit further than I am willing.

 

The hull will be mounted to 1/16” styrene sheet and re-enforced from within.  It is not necessary to use anything so heavy as 1/2” stock.