Lady Nelson by vossiewulf - Amati/Victory Models - 1:64

[BANYAN]

Hi Vossie, WRT order I always look at what is going to be difficult to do once the furniture is in situ.  For example, I place as many hooks, eyes etc into the bulwarks (for guns etc)before the furtnotre so that I have room to drill.  the same goes when it comes to the furniture itself, I always look what is going to get in the way of other jobs, so I make but only dry fit some deck furniture.  One example is things that may restrict you tying off on fife rails, pin rails, jeers btts etc.

 

cheers

 

pat

[vossiewulf]

Anyone have recommendations for falconets? The copper ones in the kit are unusable, cast in badly misaligned halves. I've found a series of falconets offered from various manufacturers at Cornwall, does anyone know which ones I should order? Or are all of them terrible and I should make them myself?

[Thunder]

The windlass would have the anchor cable directly wrapped two turns round it. on larger vessels the capstan did this function where the rope around the capstan was the messenger. This was an endless rope that was tied to the anchor cables by young boys. the action was called nipping and the boys 'nippers'. The anchor rope was too large to go directly round the capstan.

 

You would bring either into use for heavy tasks if needed.

Edited December 25, 2018 by Thunder

[Rick01]

I'm afraid I cheated here. Looked at the castings and decided, after checking out various period models, that I'd omit them totally.

 

Rick

 

 

[vossiewulf]

I wish I'd considered that option before attaching the 10 boxwood pintle mounts

[Rick01]

You could always cut them off flush to the cap rail, fill, sand and paint until there's no longer any sign of them. It's got to be less of a problem than making your own. 😉

 

Rick

[vossiewulf]

That's probably what I'm going to do, I just wish I'd thought a bit more before mounting those pieces. Well at least they make good plugs for the holes

 

[vossiewulf]

Rick, what did you do for part #25, the bow knee? It does not appear on the side view so I'm not sure whether it should be level with the deck or canted upward to follow the cap rail. If it cants upward it makes a little more visual sense but then it would need to be grooved slightly for the jib boom.

 

I spent some time looking at cutter models at the UK National Maritime Museum for details. One interesting thing is I cannot find a contemporary model with a stern anything like that of this kit- all have reinforcing knees on the bulwark/stern joint and/or storage/seats of various designs around the tiller. And to facilitate that, it looks like the cap rail didn't extend inboard at all but was flush with the inner surface of the bulwarks, unlike the overhanging rail of the kit.

 

There seems to be no commonality at all on deck furniture, number and placement of windlasses, whether the jib boom is on the port or starboard side, the design of the jib boom (some are square inboard, some not), etc. and it's surprising how many were clinker-built. Does anyone know why? I wouldn't think there is any hydrodynamic advantage and it's an oddity when as far as I know just about everything bigger than ship's boats were typically carvel-built.

 

By the way, look at this monstrosity, a circular ship, it must have been all sorts of fun to try and steer a straight course, and I can't for the life of me think of what the heck they thought they were gaining from such a design. The mirrored half-model is an interesting presentation too.

 

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/67012.html

 

 

[Rick01]

I dropped part 25 so that it supported the bowsprit which in turn is resting on part 27. A line from this part to the groove in the bulwarks  gives a line that is near parallel to the waterline (bugger - just noticed that I reversed parts 32/33 !! ).

 

As for the reinforcing knees I did add these at the stern as the whole assembly just didn't appear strong enough without them. you'll notice that I've also added a horse above and behind the tiller.

 

It's almost as if you bought a basic hull then optioned it up yourself - same as buying a car these days. What size motor/how many cylinders = how many guns/weight of guns. Leather/cloth seats = companionway opens forward/aft. 🙂

 

Rick

 

[vossiewulf]

Thanks Rick  I'll see if I can add knees to the stern. Also, I'm going to add knees to the catheads, that makes much more sense to me and there's a good model in the NMM collection showing knees on the catheads. Also I checked and yes even for small boats like these the catheads had twin sheeves, so I'm making them that way.

 

Why didn't you put um.. the gaff jaws on the stern? Some kind of jaws, most of the cutters have cradle jaws there for stowing the gaff boom, I assume when at anchor. Even though this stern is pretty thin I was thinking to install something on mine.

 

BTW, you did what seems to be the most popular color scheme, did you stain the areas of the yellow/orange visible wood? I thought everything that didn't move for more than three hours on a ship going to sea was painted, like today. But the models seem to show an unpainted varnished surface with black rails and wales.

 

I wish I had seen even two models with somewhat similar furniture and rig for the jib boom, it appears they never closed in on a common working system- every designer had their own try at it.

[Rick01]

You can't see it clearly but I did have twin sheaves on the catheads. It's about three years back since I built this and it was my second build so I can't recall clearly but if I'm right I considered a boom jaws/support but decided that I couldn't see anywhere that would take one with the required strength to fully support the boom or be relatively out of the way for deck operations. Maybe the rear of the companionway would be OK but that then stops the "lid" from opening flat. I followed the convention of satin finish varnish on wooden exterior surfaces with black finish on rails and wales and a white finish to the hull below the bottom wale.

1 hour ago, vossiewulf said:

I wish I had seen even two models with somewhat similar furniture and rig for the jib boom, it appears they never closed in on a common working system- every designer had their own try at it.

As I said - you buy your base model then add extras to suit your own style! I've also seen them with access to crew quarters up in the bows via a sliding hatch near the windlass and with anchor cables leading back to the second hold. Have a look at my "Mermaid" build, that deck layout is different again and is taken directly from its commander's sketches and is a similar size cutter to "Lady Nelson" but was built in Indian dockyards. The more you look the more you get confused!!

 

Rick

 

[Rick01]

Check this out - I know it's Russian but it is a cutter and shows a pin rail split by a gun port plus a neat boom support on the transom plus of course another deck layout!! 🙂

 

https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/17571-avos-1806-tender-by-greenstone-master-korabel-172-test/&

 

Rick

 

 

[vossiewulf]

Leave it to the Russians to face the companion sideways. Thanks for the link, that is cool and it looks like an extremely good kit. That looks like a good one for you considering your interest in cutters. I may pick that up also, it's overall much more accurate and representative of the cutter design I've seen. Except for maybe the jib boom embedded in the bulwarks narwhal-style, that seems to have been not very common.

[Rick01]

I'd be tempted to rotate the companionway 90 degrees facing it forward - it looks as if it's only that way to allow for the binnacle.

 

Rick

[vossiewulf]

Various deck bits. I made two pin rails with 5 holes each per Rick, so hopefully will have enough belaying points. For the catheads, the mortise needed was narrower even than Mikhail's narrowest tool so I made an xacto blade into a chisel on the disk sander. In one of the pics you can see the falconet mounts are all filled in, the eyebolts blackened and installed for the guns, lower cathead parts and the bow knee are done. Just have to do the windlass and knees for the stern and the deck furniture will all be done.

 

I haven't glued in most of them for the simple reason that I don't have to yet, I will finalize all the parts first.

 

I think I've changed my mind and am probably going to paint the furniture red, it doesn't make much sense to have the bulwarks and pin rails and catheads all painted with the rest of the furniture stained- I should either have everything bare wood (too late) or correctly painted.

 

 

[BANYAN]

Nice work!

 

cheers

 

Pat

[vossiewulf]

Rick, I don't understand the windlass at all. What exactly operates it? We have nothing but a little flap of wood that's just pointed at holes in the center of the big windlass, only way to operate it that I see is with some lever going in those holes and something that goes in the holes to catch that flimsy piece of wood? It's not making much sense to me.

[Rick01]

The windlass supplied isn't the best, there should be a pawl and ratchet in the centre with holes either on the drum or on extensions past the supports. The holes are for levers to be inserted to turn the windlass and the pawl locks the operation so that it only operates bringing the anchors up, flip it up and the system runs free allowing the anchor cable to run out.

 

Rick

[popeye the sailor]

yup most supplied windlasses aren't adequate for the model..........most folks either purchase one,  or make it the way they want to.

[vossiewulf]

Any recommendations for a supplier with a better windlass? I looked on Ages of Sail and the only one that would be appropriate is the exact same one that is in the kit. If not, is there somewhere with good photos? The only contemporary model with photos close enough is one of Tony's, but I still can't get a good view of what the mechanism looked like.

[Rick01]

Hopefully this will help. It's a bit flashy but gives a clear idea of the basics http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/68378.html . All the manufacturers seem a bit slack in this area as Popeye has said.

 

Rick

[vossiewulf]

3 hours ago, Rick01 said:

Hopefully this will help. It's a bit flashy but gives a clear idea of the basics http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/68378.html . All the manufacturers seem a bit slack in this area as Popeye has said.

 

Rick

Between that and Tony's pics, I get the idea, thanks. It would be easy enough to turn the center section of the windlass with the holes into a ratchet mechanism, but I'm not sure where the holes go to operate it. I guess I could put them outboard like this one, but in fact the best plan is probably just to throw away the kit windlass and make one like the windlass on that model as it looks like the kit designer took the whole boom and its rig straight from this model, and the kit-supplied windlass doesn't match the style.

[Rick01]

If you look closely at the one you've illustrated you can just make out a set of holes for the levers added to the main drum (rt side of the windlass). I guess that may be for additional leverage if ever required. I agree that building your own is really the best way of getting something that is true to the period and actually usable! About the only thing we all agree on is the shape of the support/mounts for it. 🙂

 

Rick

[Rick01]

Just noticed this when I was looking at some Master Korabel kits. It's not a bad illustration   https://craftysailor.com/collections/fittings/products/windlass 

 

Rick 

[vossiewulf]

Thanks, that is a good view.

[popeye the sailor]

the examples shown are really cool.....especially that one you showed earlier Rick.   in the other example,  the bit for the bow spirit could be incorporated into the windlass assembly {and still add the fife rails}.   depending which side the anchor ropes lead out,  the ratchets in the center must face opposite,  so the tension from the anchor ropes will pull back and lock in place.   add a lever to release the ratchets,  would give it a bit of detail.  I go to craft stores.....I found an assortment of {fake} clock gears,  small enough to be used as the cogs.  there are a number of things you can do.   I would also suggest looking around on the site......lots of folks don't buy them......they just get more of the same.  so,  they create their own......some from thin air,  and others from info they found in books.

[vossiewulf]

Per the contemporary model I'm most closely following, I spent some time soldering rings for the eyebolts, do they have a specific name? And what is the purpose, only thing I can see is they might let a rope twist freely a little bit as compared to going straight to the eyebolt.

[Rick01]

You're following "Trial" I'm guessing - the rings that I see are those on the deck for the guns and would have a hook off the block through them so that there's no gun tackle laying around when the guns are all stowed. With the ring the orientation of the eyebolt isn't quite as important - anyway that's my interpretation of it! 

 

Rick

[vossiewulf]

Progress has been a bit slow since work is being busy, but I've made everything at this point except the pumps and a small windlass I'm going to add below the spanker boom as seen in the model of Trial. Actually almost all of them have more than one small windlass on deck, but there isn't room between the anchor windlass and the forward grate on LN to fit the one typically seen forward.

 

The anchor windlass started with an octagonal section of boxwood. I just marked an octagon on each end and did it by hand with one of my small planes, it wasn't hard. I then drilled holes for the windlass bars, and squared them off using one of Mikhail's small chisels. To prevent tearout, I "crosscut" the piece into the various required sections on the lathe, and also made a couple round slices from another piece of boxwood to go on each side of the ratchet gear.

 

The ratchet gear itself is just a slice from the starting octagonal piece that I carved with a knife.

 

Test fitting, it's missing its starboard end piece here. Also, the cross piece on boom support of Trial is much lower than that on LN, and the pawl for the windlass ratchet attaches to that cross piece. So in my case, no pic but I've added a small piece to the centerline boom support and the pawl will attach to that. I also stuck with a single ratchet, whereas Trial has two.

And I also took a couple evenings and made and soldered rings for all of the eyebolts on deck.

[Rick01]

Hope you haven't glued anything yet - the holes for the bars should be on alternate faces left and right for ease of use. 

Looking really good otherwise, as for your chisel, I'd love to be that good but as I'd probably stuff up something that small I have a nail with the point filed to a square section, drill hole, insert nail, couple of sharp taps and it's done.

 

Rick