Venetian Round Ship c. 13th century by woodrat - FINISHED - 1:32 scale - fully framed

[Mark Pearse]

On the hatches, I think I prefer what you've done over single boards. Their relative width means they wouldn't twist & fall through, even with just one panel in. 

[Louie da fly]

Nice work, Dick. Looking very good.

 

Steven

[cog]

Dick, Can you tell me the width of the hatch?

[woodrat]

16 hours ago, cog said:

Dick, Can you tell me the width of the hatch?

Including the coamings it is 67mm.  equating to 2.14 metres which is 6.2 venetian piede

Dick

[cog]

Thanks for the information Dick.

That wouldn't be a slim piece of wood for a covering plank, but a sturdy one, which certainly wouldn't twist easily. Maybe hatch covers were a mere tarpaulin ... Nevertheless it remains speculation which ever way you choose. Fortunately we can exclude plastic, and sheet metal

[Binho]

On 5/20/2019 at 4:26 AM, woodrat said:

One of the unusual findings in the Contarina ship was the cut off of top timbers level with the deck in the mid section of the ship.

 

I really like your removable bulwarks. Just noticed this on the black sea wreck that might further support the idea of removable bulwark sections on these types of ships?

There are no frame tops in this area like there are on the other side, and there appears to be a sort of sill. It seems unlikely that the falling spar cleanly took out just the frames in this area, as other fallen spar/mast fragments fell between frames. However It is strange there isn't a similar sill feature on the other side.

 

About a millennium too early, but the Roman 2nd Century CE Anse des Laurons 2 wreck also had a section of cut off frames topped with a sill, with the frames on either side of the sill having slots. This was interpreted by the archaeologists as being a removable bulwark section as well. Their line drawing is too nice not to share:

Perhaps it's not an unusual feature for earlier Mediterranean ships, it's just that superstructures are so rarely preserved archaeologically?

 

Alberto

[Louie da fly]

As a further confirmation of Dick's rudder construction, here's a picture from the Annals of Genoa from 1173-1196 - over a hundred years earlier than the Contarina ship, but with a very similar rudder arrangement. 

The picture appears to have had the bow cut off, but it's actually the artist's fault - he seems to have run out of room at the edge of the page. The whole of the Annals, which also contain pictures of another two round ships and 10 galleys, are to be found at https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9076701x/f203.item - but only in black and white.

 

An interesting detail is that the rudder is outside the "wings", which seems impractical and may also be artist error. There are also issues with how the "wings" relate to the transom at the stern - doesn't look right.

 

The pictures appeared in Bjorn Landstro"m's book The Ship, but without attribution. I've always wondered where they came from.

 

Steven

Edited May 29, 2019 by Louie da fly

[woodrat]

6 hours ago, Binho said:

 

 

 

About a millennium too early, but the Roman 2nd Century CE Anse des Laurons 2 wreck also had a section of cut off frames topped with a sill, with the frames on either side of the sill having slots. This was interpreted by the archaeologists as being a removable bulwark section as well. Their line drawing is too nice not to share:

Perhaps it's not an unusual feature for earlier Mediterranean ships, it's just that superstructures are so rarely preserved archaeologically?

 

Alberto

Thanks, Alberto. The Laurons ship was one of the factors that persuaded me that removable bulwarks were often used. In addition the veneziano painting on which I base my reconstruction seems to show the coffin of St Mark being loaded across a gap in the bulwarks:

I will have to closely look at that feature on the Black Sea vessel you have pointed out. Well spotted.

Dick

[woodrat]

On 5/29/2019 at 8:45 AM, Louie da fly said:

 

An interesting detail is that the rudder is outside the "wings", which seems impractical and may also be artist error. There are also issues with how the "wings" relate to the transom at the stern - doesn't look right.

 

The pictures appeared in Bjorn Landstro"m's book The Ship, but without attribution. I've always wondered where they came from.

 

Steven

Thanks, Steven. I know this drawing well as it was used on the cover of prof. Pryor's book "Geography, technology and war" . Required reading for anyone interested in the maritime history of the mediterranean in the mediaeval period

 

I agree that the "horns" at the transom are wrongly drawn. They are probably meant to be lashed to the lowered yard. Question:

When the yard was lowered, in the absence of horns, what did the yards rest on? Removable crutches?

 

Alberto. I have reviewed all my images of the Black Sea vessel and I agree that there is definitely a gap in the starboard bulwark which is likely where a removable bulkhead was sited. I have put them on both port and starboard sides..

Cheers

Dick

[Mark Pearse]

2 hours ago, woodrat said:

When the yard was lowered, in the absence of horns, what did the yards rest on?

Hi Dick, (speaking as someone that is new to these craft) could it be that if the yards were to be lowered for a period, that they are just stowed on the deck & lashed down? If that's not too simple, & it doesn't mean that the crutches don't have a purpose.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Mark Pearse

[woodrat]

6 hours ago, Mark Pearse said:

Hi Dick, (speaking as someone that is new to these craft) could it be that if the yards were to be lowered for a period, that they are just stowed on the deck & lashed down? If that's not too simple, & it doesn't mean that the crutches don't have a purpose.

The yards were too long to stow on deck and in the case of galleys, would get in the way of oarsmen. Lowered yards could also be used to drape awnings when in harbour.

 

Here is a picture from Breydenbach's Peregrinatio in Terram Sanctam 1486 (artist Reuwich) showing a small trading vessel being loaded through a removable bulwark. Note that quarter rudders are used with a swing mount but have been removed while in port. Note also that the other vessel has a massive stern rudder which would be very difficult to unship.

 

Dick

Edited May 30, 2019 by woodrat

[Mark Pearse]

thanks - fascinating & beautiful drawings... & the blokes in the raised stern seem be enjoying their spare time in port.

[Louie da fly]

19 hours ago, woodrat said:

When the yard was lowered, in the absence of horns, what did the yards rest on? Removable crutches?

I take it you mean in a ship built without horns, such as your own? Interesting question. My dromon has permanent crutches, but I can't think of any Mediterranean round ships of the right period that show anything that could be an answer to that question.

 

I just had a look through my images to see if anything came up, and . . . nothing. But one thing that seems to come up every time is that when ships with horns are shown in 3/4 view (fairly rare, admittedly) there isn't any sort of cross-bar shown between them. So how could they support the yard anyway?

 

The only thing that might help is the pictures below, which show a sort of squared-off framework just forrard of the horns. Perhaps this is the crutch? But to my knowledge it appears in only these two pictures and not in several others which show 3/4 views of ships without horns. 

 

So, not really all that much help, I'm afraid.

 

[Edit:] However, it's occurred to me that unlike a galley, a round ship is only likely to take its yards down when it's in port - the sails are its only motive power. So perhaps just a pair of sheers at each end of the hull would be all they'd use. Why have a permanent structure that wasn't used when the ship was at sea? Just a thought.[/Edit]

 

Steven

Edited May 30, 2019 by Louie da fly

[woodrat]

On 5/30/2019 at 7:17 PM, Louie da fly said:

there isn't any sort of cross-bar shown between them. So how could they support the yard anyway?

[Edit:] However, it's occurred to me that unlike a galley, a round ship is only likely to take its yards down when it's in port - the sails are its only motive power. So perhaps just a pair of sheers at each end of the hull would be all they'd use. Why have a permanent structure that wasn't used when the ship was at sea? Just a thought.[/Edit]

 

Steven

with regard to the "horns" at the stern, they are consistently shown with round knobs on top. This seems to suggest that the yards could be lashed to the horn, obviating the need for a cross piece.

 

I agree that in port they may have just used removable crutches. Smaller vessels may have taken yards and unstepped the masts, stowing them along the side as seen in the Breydenbach vessel on the left.

 

Dick

[woodrat]

Here is the framing of the mid portion of the deck including hatch and mizzen mast partner. It is largely guesswork

but I can assure you it is quite strong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dick

Edited June 7, 2019 by woodrat

[cog]

I wonder, would they have used knees in building at that time? The drawings I've seen from different Italian vessels do not show that "technique", but those probably aren't historical correct either

[woodrat]

On 6/8/2019 at 1:41 PM, cog said:

I wonder, would they have used knees in building at that time? The drawings I've seen from different Italian vessels do not show that "technique", but those probably aren't historical correct either

Carl, I have no idea. Wrecks of this period have no decks. The Black sea may tell us in time. At the end of the day, if I am not happy, I can fully plank the deck. There must have been some method of strengthening the deck around the mast partners and bitts to allow transmission of force.

Dick

Edited June 9, 2019 by woodrat

[cog]

I certainly would expect so too. How did viking ships do that ........?

[woodrat]

It occurred to me that there should be accommodation in the after part of the ship for passengers  and ship's master/pilot. Bit difficult to do it at this stage but I thought it important. So I retrofitted the quarters. Very basic accommodation (and no doubt cramped and smelly). The planking is only on the starboard side. I think there would be capacity for about 20 passengers in the steerage

 

Dick

[Louie da fly]

Very ingenious and nicely carried out, Dick.

 

Steven

[woodrat]

I have made a simple windlass which is likely to be what they used in the 13th century. No pawls are needed as the windlass could be prevented from running backwards simply by one of the crew pushing his lever all the way through to the other side, effectively locking it.

 

 

 

 

Cheers

Dick

[Louie da fly]

Looks very good, Dick. I've become much more appreciative of windlasses now I've made one of my own. Yours is even simpler than mine, which is probably right because I just copied the one from the Mary Rose, which is from over 400 years later.

 

Is there a particular reason for making it faceted?

 

Steven 

[woodrat]

1 hour ago, Louie da fly said:

Is there a particular reason for making it faceted?

 

Yes, Steven. I made it octagonal for 3 reasons:

1. The slots for the levers are on alternative facets, lessening risk of weakening the log.
2. When winding, it allows the winders on the opposite side to maintain the strain while the next lever is inserted. Thereby a rhythm is set up, no doubt with a shanty to go with it .
3. It looks good.
4. Dick 😎

[cog]

Simple ... When ever did you do anything simple? It seems simple, until you give your reasons ... suddenly it is something well thought through, and not as simple as it looks!

[Louie da fly]

I particularly like points 3 and 4☺️.

 

Steven

[woodrat]

6 hours ago, cog said:

Simple ... When ever did you do anything simple?

Thanks.  Carl. Just call me Simplicius.

😎

 

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by woodrat

[cog]

Simplicius Magnus ... sounds better, else it would be to simple  

[woodrat]

My concept of the lower halyard blocks and bitts for the two masts.

Loosely based on a Black sea find. On contemporary iconography a consistent feature is the halyard angling acutely aft from the mast as is the practice in dhows.

This also allowed the halyards to act like backstays.

Cheers

Dick

[Louie da fly]

looks very good, Dick. Any chance of a photo from a bit further away, showing where it is on the ship? I can sort of get an idea, but a picture would help.

 

Steven

[woodrat]

3 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

Any chance of a photo from a bit further away

Soon to come, Steven, but will do so in a day or so after more additions to deck furniture. 

Dick