What are these Gaffs called?

[src]

'Morning,

What are the names of the gaffs circled in red below, are they Trisail gaffs? I have another drawing of the Enterprise around the same period that shows none of these, how often would they be employed?

I understand the gaff NOT circled is the Spanker or Driver Gaff. I am searching through Lees to work out my lengths and taper, so far I havent found any mention other than the Spanker, Driver and Trisail Gaffs. I am kind of assuming I would use the same length and taper ratio as the Driver Gaff.

Thanks in advance.

Sam

[russ]

Sam:

The lower gaff that you have circled is probably the fore gaff for the foresail. This is a regular part of the schooner rig. That foresail is loose footed with no boom. Ideally, it would be peaked up at a higher angle than what is shown. The foresail would be brailed up when furled. The fore and aft main sail could be furled by lowering the gaff or by brailing. If this was a brig rig, the that mainsail would be the spanker or driver sail. In the schooner rig, it is the mainsail. 

 

The other ones circled further up, I have no idea. 

 

Russ

 

 

[src]

Thanks Russ. Lees doesnt mention anything about a Fore Gaff that I have found yet. Would it be safe to follow the same proportions as for the Driver Boom/Gaff? The drive Gaff is 5/8 of the driver boom which is the same length as the Fore Top Yard. So following that I would make the Foresail Gaff 5/8 of the Fore Top Yard?

Sam

[russ]

Sam:

I would think that would work out okay. You might consult Biddlecombe since it is a little later and has more information on the schooner rig. 

 

Russ

[grsjax]

They are all called gaffs with a modifier such as fore sail gaff, fore topsail gaff etc.  There is also a standing gaff that is always set.  The fore sail gaff is usually a standing gaff. 

[src]

Russ, GRSJAX, thank you. Bridlecombe ordered. it will be in on Wednesday.

Sam

[wefalck]

I don't think that Biddlecombe will be of much help. In neither of the plates such gaff is shown. I have seen it on some 'clipper' ship depictions of around the middle of the 19th century. If the drawing above wasn't by Beaugean, I would have thought that draughtsperson misinterpreted a square gaff top-sail.

 

Incidentally, it was something specific to the late German deep-water barques, particularly the flying-P-liners, that they had a double gaff with a triangular gaff top-sail. The surviving KRUSZENSTERN ex PADUA, the PASSAT, the PEKING, and the German sail training vessels GORCH FOCK I and II are still rigged in that way. However, I don't know, whether the second gaff has any specific name.

[src]

4 hours ago, wefalck said:

I don't think that Biddlecombe will be of much help.

Wefalck, Thanks for the input. The book was only $15 US and with my level of knowledge (read nonexistent) I am sure I will get something out of it.

Sam

[HMS Bellisle]

monkey gaffs for flying flags from

[wefalck]

True, but Beaugean shows actually sails bent to them ...

[HMS Bellisle]

how about jackyards if not monkey gaffs?

[wefalck]

A yard is suspended at some point along its length, while booms or a gaffs are suspended/pivoting at one end. So the item in the above image is not a yard.

[rwiederrich]

Sails bent to this gaff?  Not sure this is accurate.  Looks like a monkey or pennant gaff...similar to those found on some clipper ships.

Could be an early/hybrid  double gaff top sail.....however, they were typically found on the aft spanker mast of Barques not the fore or main masts.

 

Rob(I've been known to say foolish things)

[HMS Bellisle]

have run out of ideas - not even convinced that in the image sails are set from them, although when I first saw it, I thought they were - but on looking closely - they could be large flags  - but must stress that I have really no idea -

[wefalck]

Baugean's drawing in the first post clearly shows sails on both gaffs on both masts. You can see the rope with which the sails are bent to the mast. Looks weird indeed.

[russ]

Biddlecombe has tables for a schooner's rigging. That is where the value is. 

 

Russ

[vossiewulf]

If those are sails, they are loose footed and wouldn't cover half the distance between the gaffs in question and the gaffs below. So I don't think they are sails, they are large flags/pennants, this is clearly some kind of special display since they have pennants going from the fore royal and main royal all the way down to the bulwarks.

[BANYAN]

I'm with Wefalck's interpretation in that they appear to be loose hanging sails of some sort - my reasoning - there is a hard line for the outer (lower) edge of the sails but none towards the gaff and there appears to be diminishing strips/bands of shading to represent loose folds as you go from outer to inward - even on the main mast one if zoomed right in.  If these are flags would there would be an inner hard edge also?  But, then again, all his other sails show the inner bolt rope -- so perhaps ....    Confusing!

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited March 19, 2019 by BANYAN

[rwiederrich]

I don't know....it seams quite unclear.  Notice how all the other sails are in a state of drying..as they are laid out across stays purposefully(the lowered top sails)......but these so called sails(On the gaffs) appear to be partially reefed/furled.  A very unclear drawing.

By the way Pat, I received the photographs and they are fabulous.  They will be gladly and respectfully  added to my collection.  You are too kind..thank you.

 

Rob

[src]

I have been following this discussion with interest, silently, since I have nothing to add. I am always pleasantly surprised when a simple question turns into a completely different discussion, I never fail to learn something from all of you. Since the sails, or non-sails, has garnered so much discussion here is a link to where I found the image above, there is a hi-res version available for download if that helps.

https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/NH-54000/NH-54387.html

Thanks

Sam

[amateur]

Although there are more 'proofs' that suggest that there used to be such sails.

In an other thread I found this picture

 

Found in this thread (page 4)

Jan

 

[wefalck]

I didn't read the caption on the drawing carefully and didn't realise that this is actually a drawing after an etching by Baugean. Baugean's etchings have been published over the last few decades several times and an annoted edition (which is on my bookshelves) is this one:

 

HARLAND, J. (2000): Ships & Seamanship - The Maritime Prints of J.J. Baugean.- 208 p., London (Chatham Publishing).

 

I quickly looked through the book and found several instances where such gaff was depicted, namely images no. 18 (A French Frigate with yards-a-cockbill - in mourning), 24 (American Frigate), 38 (An American Armed Schooner), 112 (A Dutch? Galiot), and 171 (A French? Brig). In all cases it is clear that sails are bent and not flags. Harland refers to them simply as 'gaff top-sails'.

 

And then I dived into the resources on my own Web-site and found the following two images of models in the Altona Museum in Hamburg:

Ship JAVA (1852)

 

Medium clipper TRITON (1858)

 

It must be noted, however, that these models are not from the time, but were built by shipwrights/sailmakers around 1890 on the basis of drawings and paintings in the museum.

[michaelpsutton2]

You might consider looking at the Ware sail plan for the USS Spark. Note one lower corner of the gaff topsail secures in the top just like what we see in the drawing of the Enterprise. The sail in the Enterprise is brailed up .

[BETAQDAVE]

    Check out EdTs Young America posting part 312 from Nov. 23, 2018.  He shows his unmounted yards for the mizzen mast including what he refers to as the Mizzen Monkey gaff.  Then on part 319 from Mar. 2, 2019 he shows it mounted on the mizzen.