Early 18th century 50 vs 70 gun ship

[timboat]

Hey everyone, so I'm making a 3d model of an early 18th century 50 gun English Man-O-War, based on the HMS Swallow, but I pretty much have zero references for this ship.  I have however found a lot of stuff for a 70 gun ship.  So my question is, can I take a lot of my building cues from a 70 gun ship, such as this one http://nauticalhistory.weebly.com/the-70-gun-third-rate-prince-frederick-of-1714.html?  I have also notice some ships have a short cabin on the quarter deck while this one has a longer one.  Are short cabins on 50 gunners more common than long cabins?  Can I get away with making a longer cabin?

 

Thank guys!

[druxey]

Go to:

 

https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections.html#!csearch;searchTerm=50_gun_ship

 

You'll find plenty of references!

[pollex]

Hello Druxy;  I bought a set of plans drawn by R.J. Collins in the 60's

of a 50-gun Navy ship c.1730.  There were 4 sheets to the scale 1:72

or 1"=6'-0".  Then, they were sold by Percival Marshall, but now they may

be available from the British company which handles the "Model Boats"

plans.   Hope this helps.   Pollex, Calgary

[druxey]

Yes, I'm familiar with those plans. They are 'generic', rather than those of a specific ship. All his models were to that scale. As a side comment, R.J. Collins was my first mentor way back when I was just a young kid. He was very encouraging and helpful to me, bless him.

[timboat]

Thanks for the information guys but it kind of miss what I was looking for.  I have a bunch of references of certain bits here and there, of this and that, but nothing that's as complete and descriptive of a 4th rate from circa 1715 that I need to make a 3d model of one with a full interior.  I already have line drawings but they're lacking specific details, such as bitts, capstans, gun ports, channels .etc.  I can't find detail pictures of many 4th rate model from the early 18th century, but I can find a lot of pictures of 3rd rates models from the same period.  I have to work with what I got, so I can take my building cues for specific parts from a 3rd rate?  Thanks.

[Jaager]

Scantlings of Royal Navy Ships  should provide the dimensions for most everything.  50 gun 1719  is one of the entries.

 

Although frigates were just evolving,  I am thinking that a 50  would not offer much more fire power than 44 gun frigate,

yet with the extra deck - be slower, and more cumbersome.  It might be a better home for an admiral, but that is a self serving reason to build a 50 or 60.

[allanyed]

Jaager, thanks for the plug on the Scantlings book, much appreciated.

Tim, the 1719 establishment scantlings will be close to the scantlings earlier in the 18th century but not exact.  Also, there are some transitions to consider in the look of the vessels at that time.    

To address your question, interior and exterior wise there are differences in appearance between 1719 Establishment designs and pre-1719 Establishment designs. 

A couple basic examples-

Wreaths were present until about 1705.  Photos of some models of 1703 that I have seen have wreaths, others do not.

Spritsails were still to be seen even when jib booms started to be used about 1700.

The wales were split for the first years of that century, but transitioned to wider (not split) wales.  There are no stern timber standards on top of the round house, but there were tabernacles or a similar block to support the stern ensign staff. 

Interior construction has differences as well.  The shapes of capstans, cannon, etc were different in 1700 than in later years. Use of cross pillars changed about that time.  Stove design was changing about that time.   Swallow of 1703 would not have had cant frames. The list goes on.

Your reference to cabins on quarter deck sounds like you are referring to the round house.  The length on the Litchfield, 50 Gun (1695) is 9'4".  The length of the roundhouse on Antelope, 50 gun, 1703 is approximately 12'.  Deptford 60 gun (1732) round house was nearly to the mizen at about 30 feet long.  

If you are referring to the HMS Swallow of 1703, drawings and details on Antelope should be similar if not exactly the same.   There are lines drawings of Antelope but no inboard profile.  There are details and photos for other 130' fifties of that time that that I have found in researching my current project on Litchfield so a lot of information is out there.    

Hope some of this helps. 

Allan

[timboat]

It does help.  Thank you!  For some background I'm making the 3d model for a video game mod based on the Golden Age of Piracy, circa 1715.  The drawing of the Antelope does help.  I've never heard the cabin on the quarter deck being referred to as the round house.  I always thought it was the semi circle heads at the head of the ship.  From my understanding the round house's function depended on whether or not a ship had a whip staff or a wheel.  Would it be safe to assume if the ship I make has a wheel instead of the whip staff the captain would be quartered up there, and therefor the cabin would be longer than it previously was, such as the cabin depicted here http://nauticalhistory.weebly.com/the-70-gun-third-rate-prince-frederick-of-1714.html ?

 

As for parts like capstans, channels, bitts .etc would it be safe to use a 70 gun as reference from this time period?  It doesn't have to be 100% accurate, just authentic, because this model would fill the roles of many different ships of its size.

[mtaylor]

Tim, 

Have a look at this one:   Rif Winfield's "The 50 Gun Ship".   It's available on Amazon.   If you decide to dive into the rabbit hole (most of us have done that more than once ) there's other books detailed such things a rigging and fittings, etc.  But I think Winfield will get you started.  

 

 

[allanyed]

Tim

The timing of the introduction of the steering wheel in place of the whipstaff is conjectural and Brian Lavery goes into it in some detail on pages 18 and 19 of The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War.  While he could not find a specific date with an official edict to use a wheel versus whipstaff, there are models circa 1703 with a windlass and another with a single conventional wheel design.   On the other hand there is a model at NMM of the Gloucester 50, 1711 with a whipstaff companion.   Lavery states that the use of a wheel spread fairly rapidly after 1711, and it seems to have been a standard fitting on warships by 1715.  Antelope would likely have had a whipstaff in 1703.   There were roundhouses (poop decks) in use long after the introduction of the wheel for steering.  Scantlings for the roundhouse are given in both the 1719 Establishment and 1745 Establishment.  The rounding for the roundhouse deck beams is given as 8" in 1719 and 8.5" in 1745.  Further, scantlings in Steel's Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture 1805 are given for roundhouses of ships of 50 guns and larger with a rounding of 8.5".   With the Golden Age of Piracy going from the mid 17th century to about 1730, there were a lot of design changes in the British navy and presumably in the navies of other nations.     Good luck in your project!

Allan