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In reading  a contract for two of the 130 foot group 50 gun ships (British) of the late 17th century there is the following description:  

Every Beame of the Deck shall be Tayled into the Clamps .     I would really appreciate seeing a sketch of exactly what tailing means in his instance.  I can envision the clamp being scored, or the beam end being scored or perhaps a dovetail of some sort, but not sure if one or none of these is what is meant by tailing.  Thanks in advance!!

Allan

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Good Evening Allan;

 

It does indeed refer to dovetailing, as Druxey says. The beams were normally dovetailed on the end, and the dovetail was let down around 1" into the top of the clamp.

 

I'm not sure if the dovetail was worked through the full height of the beam, or merely the part which was set down in the mortice in the clamp. Sources seem to vary on this.

 

All the best,

 

Mark 

Previously built models (long ago, aged 18-25ish) POB construction. 32 gun frigate, scratch-built sailing model, Underhill plans.

2 masted topsail schooner, Underhill plans.

 

Started at around that time, but unfinished: 74 gun ship 'Bellona' NMM plans. POB 

 

On the drawing board: POF model of Royal Caroline 1749, part-planked with interior details. My own plans, based on Admiralty draughts and archival research.

 

Always on the go: Research into Royal Navy sailing warship design, construction and use, from Tudor times to 1790. 

 

Member of NRG, SNR, NRS, SMS

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Thanks Druxey and Mark.  Seems to be a never ending (thankfully) learning curve to be contended with these model building endeavors of ours.

Edited by allanyed

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

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I always thought for some reason dovetail ended beams was a French thing whereas the English just let the beam down into the clamp ???

The clerk of the cheque's yacht of sheerness

Current build HMS Sirius (1797) 1:48 scratch POF from NMM plans

HMS Winchelsea by chuck 1:48

Cutter cheerful by chuck 1:48

Previous builds-

Elidir - Thames steam barge

Cutty Sark-Billings boats

Wasa - billings boats

Among others 😁

 

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So did I Paul.   But, with the contract, I learned this as something new as well.   Going through this contract, I have found a lot of major differences with ships from the 1719 Establishment and beyond.  A lot had to do with timber supplies.  Some examples, the keel for the 50 gun ship is stated to be made of no more than 3 pieces.  From the 1719 Establishment it is given as 5 pieces. There are fewer futtocks for the frames, and the list goes on.  I made a spread sheet of scantlings comparing dimensions and descriptions from the contract to those of the 1719 Establishment and there are many more differences than I would have guessed.

Allan

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

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What may have been going on =

The number of trees that are suited for warship construction is finite,  especially on an island that is not all that large to begin with.  In the zeal the build a large navy, all of the large old growth Oak was cut.  They had to sacrifice their standards to match what they could obtain.   

 

Unless the project is a cross section,  in a model,  it is a detail difficult to see.  A close, but easier technique; have the clamp stop at the bottom of the beam and fit a short piece of the same wood  between the beams that is the depth of the dovetail.  Done well, the glue joint may appear to be wood grain.

Edited by Jaager

NRG member 45 years

 

Current:  

HMS Centurion 1732 - 60-gun 4th rate - Navall Timber framing

HMS Beagle 1831 refiit  10-gun brig with a small mizzen - Navall (ish) Timber framing

The U.S. Ex. Ex. 1838-1842
Flying Fish 1838  pilot schooner -  framed - ready for stern timbers
Porpose II  1836  brigantine/brig - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers
Vincennes  1825  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers assembled, need shaping
Peacock  1828  Sloop-of -War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Sea Gull  1838  pilot schooner -  timbers ready for assembly
Relief  1835  ship - timbers ready for assembly

Other

Portsmouth  1843  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Le Commerce de Marseilles  1788   118 cannons - framed

La Renommee 1744 Frigate - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers

 

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Thanks Jaager,

I really have no issues with dovetailing the ends of the beams if that is what is called for.  I am mainly interested in getting into the details and matching actual construction whenever possible.   There are limits of course, and I probably have more than many others here, but if it can be done accurately I usually like to at least give it a try if only for my own satisfaction.   The more I look at the situation here though, the more I wonder if the answer is a dove tail in the French manner of construction or a variation as Mark mentioned in his reply.  Frolich shows it very clearly in The Art of Ship Modeling as well as in a few build logs here that I recall seeing, but they are all French vessels.   I have not yet seen anything remotely close to a dove tail type of construction in any contemporary or "modern" books on English shipbuilding    Seems the more years I study, the more questions arise, and many, so far, without answers.    Still having fun though :>)

Allan 

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

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Thanks Druxey, but a shame they would never be seen.   These would certainly strengthen the tie of the beam to the clamp.  I am sure it will take a little bit of extra time, but great practice using my chisels.   

Allan

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

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Photo record for sure Druxey.  I am a LONG way from that point.  In recently receiving the contemporary information from a contract for sister ships to Lichfield as mentioned above, I have had to edit many of the drawings, including every frame, and edit the scantlings folios as well.  It remains a labor of love so I have found no hardship in doing any of it. To the contrary, is has been great practice as well as an enjoyable voyage so far.

 

Edited by allanyed

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

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Good Evening Allan;

 

I hope you are enjoying your labours. I understand what you mean about doing it for love.

 

Another item of interest with deck beams, which no-one will expect you to replicate, not even yourself, is this: alternating beams were laid 'top and butt'. This was the practice of having the root end of the trunk from which the beam was sawn laid alternately to port and starboard. This was because the root end was tougher and more resistant to rot, and meant that, all other things being equal, there would not be a weakness caused by a run of beam ends rotting at the same time.

 

A further precaution was to drill a horizontal hole into the heart of the beam's ends, and then insert a red-hot iron in the hole, charring the wood, which also helped prevent rot. In addition, a further hole could be bored upwards from the underside of the beam, to intersect with this horizontal hole, thus allowing the circulation of air to help dry out any damp in the beam end.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

Previously built models (long ago, aged 18-25ish) POB construction. 32 gun frigate, scratch-built sailing model, Underhill plans.

2 masted topsail schooner, Underhill plans.

 

Started at around that time, but unfinished: 74 gun ship 'Bellona' NMM plans. POB 

 

On the drawing board: POF model of Royal Caroline 1749, part-planked with interior details. My own plans, based on Admiralty draughts and archival research.

 

Always on the go: Research into Royal Navy sailing warship design, construction and use, from Tudor times to 1790. 

 

Member of NRG, SNR, NRS, SMS

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Thanks Mark.   I was aware of a vertical score being made on the ends of the beams which I have done in the past, but not the horizontal and vertical intersecting borings.  And you are correct, unless I was going to make beams from saplings, I will forego the practice of making sure the root end of the beam is alternating port and starboard. :>)  

Allan 

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

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The practice of alternating beam ends and 'mouthing' or the boring of air holes is described and illustrated in The Fully Framed Model, HMN Swan Class Sloops 1767-1780, Volume I, pages 256 and 262.

Edited by druxey

Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series  http://trafalgar.tv

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Allan et. al.

 

In reference to where dovetailing the deck beams ends into the clamp was used,  Norway is another place.  The 1880 DNV classification rules even make it sound as if dovetailing can be used instead of knees  (seems pretty unlikely, but who knows!)- "All deck beams to be securely fastened to the sides of the vessel by knees, either hanging or lodging, OR [emphasis is mine] by being dovetailed or doweled into a shelf; the inner overlaying stringer and waterway being let into the beam."

 

I'm not clear on what it all means, but it seemed interesting.

 

Doug

Edited by Doug McKenzie
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Good Evening Doug;

 

Thank you for your post. If the knee was seen more as a method of fastening the beam securely to the ship's side, then its substitution by a dovetailed joint would seem reasonable enough. 

 

Thank you also Druxey, for mentioning the Swan volume. David Antscherl's books are indeed a valuable source for any modeller, and well worth obtaining.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

Previously built models (long ago, aged 18-25ish) POB construction. 32 gun frigate, scratch-built sailing model, Underhill plans.

2 masted topsail schooner, Underhill plans.

 

Started at around that time, but unfinished: 74 gun ship 'Bellona' NMM plans. POB 

 

On the drawing board: POF model of Royal Caroline 1749, part-planked with interior details. My own plans, based on Admiralty draughts and archival research.

 

Always on the go: Research into Royal Navy sailing warship design, construction and use, from Tudor times to 1790. 

 

Member of NRG, SNR, NRS, SMS

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