Airfix Revenge & Revell Golden Hind Accuracy

[Robert Taylor]

Hi Everyone 

 

Just been looking through a few models on the internet I built years ago, and was wondering about the stern on these two models namely "Airfix- Revenge" & "Revell -  Golden  Hind" in the fact that the two are very similar. 

Are these historically accurate? Do we know what these 2 ships actually looked like ? Or has one copied the other? 

 

[ccoyle]

My understanding is that pretty much everything we "know" about galleons is based in large part on conjecture. With these old kits, it wasn't uncommon for one manufacturer to sell molds to another, or to rebrand one kit subject as some other subject.

[Tony Hunt]

7 hours ago, ccoyle said:

My understanding is that pretty much everything we "know" about galleons is based in large part on conjecture. With these old kits, it wasn't uncommon for one manufacturer to sell molds to another, or to rebrand one kit subject as some other subject.

Yes, these kits were available when I was a kid, so they've been around a LONG time! 😀  I doubt they represent the latest thinking on the appearance of these ships, there has been a lot of high quality research done over the past few decades.

[Robert Taylor]

To put another example into the discussion here is an example of the Airfix Golden Hind that I am building at present, yet the stern of this is totally different from the Revell one above. 

Which I guess is either accurate or these company's did very little in the way of Historical accuracy when developing these models?

Also do any Naval Historical establishments have surviving  details and records on these 2 ships or "The Pelican" before she was renamed the "Golden Hind" and thus after renaming was she fitted with a New stern to support the image. 

I guess we'll probably never know, and I wouldn't be surprised if the same questions could be asked of other Galleons/ vessels from this era.

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Robert Taylor

[Baker]

14 hours ago, Robert Taylor said:

Do we know what these 2 ships actually looked like ?

The Golden Hind : certainly not.
Most plans and kits are based on drawings and ideas that were not from the 16th century.

No one can say that he is building the right model.
But actually no one can say your model is built incorrectly
I try to build a Pelican / Golden Hind  ( i discovered that building a 16th century galleon is complicated...) 

 

The Revenge :  maybe
It is said that modelkits are designed from a drawing by Mathew Baker, a shipbuilder from the 16th century.

Correct??

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Robert Taylor said:

Which I guess is either accurate or these company's did very little in the way of Historical accuracy when developing these models?

These are old kits.
Designed according to the then available information.

 

Have fun building these models. that is the most important thing.

[chris watton]

I did some designs for a 64th scale Golden Hind back in 2009, and liaised with an expert on this period throughout, who had studied and researched this period all his life. The pictures attached was the result from all available evidence and 'expert conjecture'. It looks a lot different to what we are all used to seeing. This ship really was tiny, too small for stacked multiple rear deck levels, and possibly too small for the often shown stern walkway.

Edited April 24, 2020 by chris watton

[Baker]

On 4/24/2020 at 12:12 PM, chris watton said:

did some designs for a 64th scale Golden Hind back in 2009, and liaised with an expert on this period throughout, who had studied and researched this period all his life. The pictures attached was the result from all available evidence and 'expert conjecture'. It looks a lot different to what we are all used to seeing. This ship really was tiny, too small for stacked multiple rear deck levels, and possibly too small for the often shown stern walkway.

A very beautiful model.
Indeed, i think mine is a little too big.
And my balcony on the stern? I do not regret it, but without it, it was probably more correct.

[chris watton]

1 hour ago, Backer said:

A very beautiful model.
Indeed, i think mine is a little too big.
And my balcony on the stern? I do not regret it, but without it, it was probably more correct.

I love your model, and no one knows for sure how she really looked when fitted out as the Golden Hind. For this period, a lot is conjecture anyway, so most reasonable interpretations cannot really be criticised.

[Thunder]

The Airfix Golden hind stern cannot be correct as Drake renamed the ship 'Golden Hind' after one of the benefactors of the expedition whilst already on the journey.

[Louie da fly]

2 hours ago, Thunder said:

Drake renamed the ship 'Golden Hind' after one of the benefactors of the expedition whilst already on the journey.

Thank you, Thunder. That's something I'd never known before.

 

Chris, that's a beautiful model and very believable (though I love Patrick's as well).

 

Steven

[Louie da fly]

Of course, if the Pelican had any sort of decoration to go with her name, it would be a pelican "in her piety" - see http://www.thewestologist.com/symbols/the-symbol-of-self-sacrifice . These representations often looked completely unlike a real pelican - the artists had probably never seen one. 

 

According to that great authority Wikipedia:

"The legends of self-wounding and the provision of blood may have arisen because of the impression a pelican sometimes gives that it is stabbing itself with its bill. In reality, it often presses this onto its chest to fully empty the pouch. Another possible derivation is the tendency of the bird to rest with its bill on its breast; the Dalmatian pelican has a blood-red pouch in the early breeding season and this may have contributed to the myth."

 

As Michael Caine famously said (assumes cockney accent) "Not many people know vat"

 

Steven

[dafi]

In our german forum the late Hagen/Stüermann had started a wonderful Golden Hinde before he passed. He found plenty of contemporary paintings and carvings depicting the pelican feeding his young ones. A great approach which he unfortunately could not finish ...

 

https://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/t4334f953-Die-quot-GOLDEN-HINDE-quot-von-Airfix-oder-der-Versuch-sich-einer-Legende-zu-naehern-2.html#msg71877

 

https://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/t4334f953-Die-quot-GOLDEN-HINDE-quot-von-Airfix-oder-der-Versuch-sich-einer-Legende-zu-naehern-3.html#msg72046

 

XXXDAn

[FrancisMcN]

There is a related thread here and it may be worth searching for other posts by Prof Tilley there too:

 

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/7/p/72084/743327.aspx#743327