Glory of the Seas 1869 by rwiederrich - FINISHED - 1/96 - medium clipper

[ClipperFan]

On 11/18/2021 at 12:40 PM, rwiederrich said:

I'm only concerned with what I see in her San Fran photo of 1877.  We need someone to pull a Michael Mjelde and compile this documented remodeling info timeline.

I'm far too busy building her to allocate any time to sucha worth while pursuit.   At this time.

 

Rob 

 

[ClipperFan]

Just now, ClipperFan said:

 

Rob,

In response to my question about the added backstays, Mike sent the following email:

"Please note that I have concluded that the additional backstays were added following the arrival of "Glory" at Liverpool when Josiah Knowles took command. It was most likely following the earlier suggestion of Elisha Sears who conducted the 'delivery' voyage via St John with lumber from Boston to Liverpool and that Sears had concluded that she needed those two additional backstays if she was going to be 'driven' under full sail."   

This brings up an interesting thought. Samuel Walters was a contemporary English artist of fine repute. Perhaps this was when he was commissioned to do his beautiful oil? He would have been able to see Glory close up while she was anchored in Liverpool. 

[Keith Black]

 Rob, the comparison images on your Glory look spot on, very nice. 

[rwiederrich]

4 hours ago, BANYAN said:

A great testament to your modelling skills Rob, and to the great research you and others have completed.

 

The only (very minor) point I have is that in one of the shots (midships on the upper deck), the base of the lower masts 'appears' a little thick compared to the photo.  However, that is likely due to the camera (especially in the lens qualities between the old and yours) which will drastically distort the perspective and create differences in foreshortening of that part of the deck space - I know you have measured this so is bound to be right.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Pat…..you must not forget that you can’t compare the single “stick “ mast as depicted in the photograph to the different dimensioned mizzenmast of her original composite banded masts.  Banded masts can appear wider.    I myself, had to remeasure time and time again to keep them as correct as possible.   Thank for paying close attention.   
 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

In response to my question about the added backstays, Mike sent the following email:

"Please note that I have concluded that the additional backstays were added following the arrival of "Glory" at Liverpool when Josiah Knowles took command. It was most likely following the earlier suggestion of Elisha Sears who conducted the 'delivery' voyage via St John with lumber from Boston to Liverpool and that Sears had concluded that she needed those two additional backstays if she was going to be 'driven' under full sail."   

This brings up an interesting thought. Samuel Walters was a contemporary English artist of fine repute. Perhaps this was when he was commissioned to do his beautiful oil? He would have been able to see Glory close up while she was anchored in Liverpool. 

So that means Walters saw and painted her before she received her new back stays.  In 1870?  Then she received her helm mods before that?  Just after she was built?

Makes no sense. 
 

When did Knowles take command……before or after her major 1872 refit?

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 Rob, the comparison images on your Glory look spot on, very nice. 

Thanks Kieth,  I appreciate that.  
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

8 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

So that means Walters saw and painted her before she received her new back stays.  In 1870?  Then she received her helm mods before that?  Just after she was built?

Makes no sense. 
 

When did Knowles take command……before or after her major 1872 refit?

 

Rob

Rob, Wikipedia has a pretty thorough chart of the Captains and voyages of "GLORY of the SEAS" including exact dates of departure and arrival locales.

Elisha Sears departed Saint John, New Brunswick May 14, 1871 & arrived in Liverpool June 8, 1871 a voyage which took 25 days. In all fairness, her journey should have begun a day earlier but she grounded on a sand bar. From his recommendations to Captain Josiah Knowles to add additional back stays in order to run Glory on full sails implies he was hampered in his own attempts and most likely had to sail under less than optimal setting of sails.

On August 19, 1871 Captain Josiah Knowles departed from Cardif, Wales and arrived in San Francisco, December 16, 1871 a voyage of 120 days. February 7, 1872 he left for Liverpool arriving there 112 days later on May 28, 1872. He departed from Liverpool July 25, 1872 where he arrived in San Francisco November 25, 1872 . A journey of 119 days. January 25, 1873 he left San Francisco to arrive in Liverpool 128 days later on May 23, 1873.

The next voyage is when Glory had a very fast voyage. She departed New York October 13, 1873 and arrived in San Francisco either on January 16 or 18, 1874 a journey of 94 or 96 days. Which leads me to wonder. After four long voyages, had the captain finally sorted out Glory's rigging, including the added two backstays? This would imply that those backstays might have been added in the later months of 1872, possibly in November? Meanwhile, it leaves plenty of time for Samuel Walters to paint his commission after major modifications to Glory's helm as well as the additional catwalk to the ship's boats remounted on the Boy's house.

[BANYAN]

Not hard to pay close attention to such a very nicely made model; especially with the research that has gone into it.  Thanks for the explanation.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

While researching Josiah Nickerson Knowles, I came across this beautiful painting of Captain Knowles. While we're most familiar with him for his introduction of the extended, enclosed helmhouse, Captain Knowles had an incredible experience as Captain of the doomed Clipper "Wild Wave." His crew and passengers were marooned on a small island in the Pacific when their vessel ran aground on a hidden coral reef. He and a handful of his crew took a lifeboat to Pitcairn Island 100 miles away. The same isle of the mutineers of HMS Bounty fame. When he arrived the island was deserted so Captain Knowles had to seek help at another island. It's quite a fascinating tale of determination and inventive heroism.

[ClipperFan]

Rob, 

I sent Mike your entire series of comparison images of your model to actual scenes of Glory herself. There were so many pics that it required several emails. While his response is very brief, I think you'll be thrilled with it. Here it is verbatim:

"He is bringing the ship to life. What add to it is that the images are in full color."

[rwiederrich]

9 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

While researching Josiah Nickerson Knowles, I came across this beautiful painting of Captain Knowles. While we're most familiar with him for his introduction of the extended, enclosed helmhouse, Captain Knowles had an incredible experience as Captain of the doomed Clipper "Wild Wave." His crew and passengers were marooned on a small island in the Pacific when their vessel ran aground on a hidden coral reef. He and a handful of his crew took a lifeboat to Pitcairn Island 100 miles away. The same isle of the mutineers of HMS Bounty fame. When he arrived the island was deserted so Captain Knowles had to seek help at another island. It's quite a fascinating tale of determination and inventive heroism.

Interesting......so if Knowles had her for several years(Possibly 4) before adding the new back stays...and if he is the Captain who extended the wheelhouse(And all the other deck mods)...Walters painted her sometime before 1874.  Because it was already noted by her previous captain, captain Sears, that her sailing ability under full sail was diminished...meaning it was unsafe to *Load* her masts with full sail. Due to insufficient stabilization...hence her routinely, slow passages.  Now it wasn't until Knowles recorded a fast passage from NY to SFS in late 1973 to 1874, that it  seams clear it wasn't until her rigging was stabilized with the addition of the 2 new backstays(On her Fore and main masts) that this was accomplished.

 

So Glory received her wheelhouse and deck mods sometime after 1871 and her new backstays could have been added around  mid 1873.....(after the recorded routinely slow passages, but before the recorded fast passage).  And Walters painted her between 1872 and late 1873.

 

The story is coming clear...well clearer anyway.

 

Rob

 

 

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, 

I sent Mike your entire series of comparison images of your model to actual scenes of Glory herself. There were so many pics that it required several emails. While his response is very brief, I think you'll be thrilled with it. Here it is verbatim:

"He is bringing the ship to life. What add to it is that the images are in full color."

Thanks Rich...I wanted Mike to have them.  He is so gracious.  He began this adventure over 40+ years ago and we are rounding the corner to completion.  Just a year or two left to go.......      

I hope I have her finished before then.......

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Thanks Rich...I wanted Mike to have them.  He is so gracious.  He began this adventure over 40+ years ago and we are rounding the corner to completion.  Just a year or two left to go.......      

I hope I have her finished before then.......

 

Rob

Rob, I hope you find this as fascinating as I do. It's kind of a 6 degrees of separation from "GLORY of the SEAS" involving her intrepid future Captain Josiah Nickerson Knowles. He was the sole Master of the 1854 Maine built Medium Clipper "Wild Wave". In 1858 while cruising at 13 knots, the vessel ran aground on a smooth circular coral reef of Oeno, a small one mile island. Later the Captain discovered that the island was misplaced by 20 miles due to an error in his chart by mapmakers. Captain Knowles wrote quite a fascinating first person account of the determination of the ship's crew to facilitate their escape: "The Crusoes of Pitcairn Island, being an account of the wreck of the "Wild Wave" of Boston, on Oeno Island in the Pacific, and the subsequent adventures of her master and crew on Pitcairn's Island, as related in the diary of Captain Josiah Nickerson Knowles, of Brewster."  

From the brief summaries I've read, Captain Knowles demonstrated his future inventiveness in designing and building a vessel from scrap wood on Pitcairn's Isle. I came across a beautiful painting of the doomed vessel "Wild Wave" which I thought you might appreciate seeing.

Edited November 22, 2021 by ClipperFan
completion of book title

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

wou wou amazing set of paralell comparison ship photos Rob. absoultely fantastic  

V. 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Vladimir_Wairoa
add

[rwiederrich]

Thanks Vlad...I appreciate that.

 

I'm sorry to all who are anticipating more posts and updates.  I have been out of state visiting family and will be tied up most of the month with various holiday issues.

 

I hope I can slip away for some shipyard work, but we will see.  Holidays, this time, are more precious due to the nightmare of Covid restrictions.   We are free and will continue to honor our Lord.

 

I wish all my MSW friends and fellow Glory hounds a wonderful FREEDOM filled holiday Season.

 

Rob

[Keith Black]

And the same to you, Rob. May God bless you and yours. 

[ClipperFan]

Rob, Vladimir and to everybody else who follows this "Glorious" build, have wholesome, happy and above all safe Holiday Season. 

[rwiederrich]

While I am not in the shipyard...I am still doing research...and studying images trying to validate the true location of both port and starboard  davits...it became clear what was happening on the aft deck of the Glory, in this image of her in San Pedro in 1907.  It appears that this is the moment that she is getting her catwalk....that bridges between the carriage house and the boys cabin removed.    One rail section is clearly seen being positioned.  This is furtherly corroborated by noticing, that the main yard is being employed to do the heavy lifting, as she is swung about to starboard.   A man can even be made out standing on the boys cabin just aft of the extricated rail....assisting in its removal.

 

It, remains unclear when exactly she received this feature.

 

I have determined that all of her davits are uniform and symmetrically placed on her hull.  Photographic evidence shows both port and starboard locations are the same.  
The aft davit is roughly forward of the aft rail and the forward is mounted just aft of the main channel.(Or it is within the channel?)  Why I am still researching. 

 

Rob

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  Take notice of the furled sails, and how compact and 'un-bunched' they appear in real life ... something to think about if one wants a model to have some (or all ) of the sails furled.  Likely that only a narrow strip of the finest material would be used in modeling applications to avoid the 'bunched' look of furled sails on a model if too much (and too heavy) fabric is used.  One can see small 'dog ears' on either side of the sails.

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

  Take notice of the furled sails, and how compact and 'un-bunched' they appear in real life ... something to think about if one wants a model to have some (or all ) of the sails furled.  Likely that only a narrow strip of the finest material would be used in modeling applications to avoid the 'bunched' look of furled sails on a model if too much (and too heavy) fabric is used.  One can see small 'dog ears' on either side of the sails.

Whenever I model furled sails...It is best to reduce the sail material to a third of its mass...sometimes even less....so you can have less out of scale material to furl.  Even material as close to scale, needs to be reduced to make it convincing.  On my last attempt, on my old, original version of Glory of the Seas....I wanted a bit more sails exposed, unlike the thin natural example in the image.

 

However, I am not planning on putting sails(at this time....things do change, however) on this version of Glory.

 

Rob

Edited December 1, 2021 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

It has become clear to me that the symmetrical boat davits are located (the aft ones), just forward of the iron hand rail of the aft poop rail and the forward ones are located between the main channels and the additional or modified back stays.  Every image shows this and this image is the best.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

Rob, whenever I see truly furled sails on Tall Ships, it always amazes me how tight and uniform "Shipshape & Bristol fashion" the crew manages to get them. The challenge for the modeler is to capture this authenticity to scale. I think in this case, a "less is more" approach would suit best. For instance, compare the size of your mouse ears to the actual much ones on Glory herself. 

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

From these two photos, to me it looks like the mounting location for the Starboard Davits never changed from Glory's launch in 1869 until her hull was beached in 1923. The aft location remained within the Mizzen Shrouds and the fore was behind the Main Shrouds. That means the Davits were offset throughout Glory's career, as the Port location was further forward with the after most being just ahead of the wrought iron hand rail and the foremost being much closer to the Main Shrouds. It doesn't appear like these Davit mounting locations changed at all during her entire long career.

 

[rwiederrich]

Sorry to disagree Rich, but her starboard aft davit is clearly shown at the same location as the aft port, I showed in the picture, not to mention the fore that is clearly next to the added backstay. I think you are mistaking tree branches in her grounding image.   Look closely at this picture.  Her aft Davit isn’t anywhere close to the mizzenmast shrouds.  No….they are closer to her rail as on her port side as seen in the picture. I can’t imagine any logical reason to offset the davits.
 

Rob

Edited December 2, 2021 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

Rob, in an effort to show what I'm seeing, I've cropped and sharpened the image of Glory beached at Endolyne. Just above the capital "A" is the Starboard fore davit. It's about midway between mizzen and Main Shrouds being just Between mizzen deadeye shrouds #4 & #5 is the clearly visible aft davit. The distinctive curve at the top is too clean to be a tree branch. Mike also illustrated off balance boat launch davits in his illustrations. I understand what you're saying about the other photo but the front angle doesn't give enough definitive evidence to really compare it to anything. 

[rwiederrich]

8 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, in an effort to show what I'm seeing, I've cropped and sharpened the image of Glory beached at Endolyne. Just above the capital "A" is the Starboard fore davit. It's about midway between mizzen and Main Shrouds being just Between mizzen deadeye shrouds #4 & #5 is the clearly visible aft davit. The distinctive curve at the top is too clean to be a tree branch. Mike also illustrated off balance boat launch davits in his illustrations. I understand what you're saying about the other photo but the front angle doesn't give enough definitive evidence to really compare it to anything. 

I see exactly what you are attempting to point out to me from this image...which compared to the very clear and unmistakable image I posted earlier....it indicates, either the davits have an alternate location during different time periods.....or......one of us is mistaken.

 

Now if you look closely at the image I provided....locate the starboard mizzen mast shrouds...they're there at the back of the image on the left(Unmistakable).....now if your suggestion was true...the davit would be mounted right in the middle of the shrouds....abutting them and would be unmistakable...if it were remotely true.  but if you see...the aft davit is no where near the mizzen shrouds....and if you follow the line of the vertical portion you can devise it bisects just about at the place where the rail iron meets the rail.    I'm not trying to argue....I'm trying to determine definitively the true location of Glory's davits...and it is clear from several images that her port davits are located as I have described.  It is not unreasonable to gather, her starboard davits would not follow a well established symmetry of design, that is prevalent in her entirety.

I've studied Glory's grounding image and coupled with many other images, which show a different story, I concluded the object mistaken for a davit is merely an illusion induced by the background tree branches on shore, or some other onboard structure not yet identified.

 

In thes images...her starboard davits are clearly tied together at the block head...with blocks clearly identified as well.  As you can see...the davits are no were near the mizzen shrouds in this image either.  Her davits are symmetrical from the stern and in this image of conversion you can clearly see the aft davit NOT in the mizzen shrouds and the forward davit just aft of the main channel.

 

I'm sorry Rich, but the natural course of symmetry and many clear images show and are evidence, Glory's davits are NOT mounted within her mizzen channels.  The mizzen channel mounting would be nearly an unusable location.... to swing boats from across the fore deck of the carriage house....?   You, and Mike IMHO are drawing this conclusion from one poorly representative image, which can easily be dismissed through deduction and the process of illumination.

 

One last image to prove the symmetry of her davits.  Look at the stern image of her...you can clearly see the symmetrical location of her davits....follow the mizzen shrouds to their end on their channels and you can clearly see neither aft davit has its origins there.  the port forward davit even cleaves next to the extra added backstay...furthering the evidence of other images.  This combined data can only lead one to conclude, as I have, that her davits are the same on both sides and that placing a davit within the mizzen channel would be, not only impractical, but unusable, given the location of the carriage house.

 

I hope you can see what I've diligently and carefully tried to point out .

 

Rob

Edited December 2, 2021 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

I see exactly what you are attempting to point out to me from this image...which compared to the very clear and unmistakable image I posted earlier....it indicates, either the davits have an alternate location during different time periods.....or......one of us is mistaken.

 

Now if you look closely at the image I provided....locate the starboard mizzen mast shrouds...they're there at the back of the image on the left(Unmistakable).....now if your suggestion was true...the davit would be mounted right in the middle of the shrouds....abutting them and would be unmistakable...if it were remotely true.  but if you see...the aft davit is no where near the mizzen shrouds....and if you follow the line of the vertical portion you can devise it bisects just about at the place where the rail iron meets the rail.    I'm not trying to argue....I'm trying to determine definitively the true location of Glory's davits...and it is clear from several images that her port davits are located as I have described.  It is not unreasonable to gather, her starboard davits would not follow a well established symmetry of design, that is prevalent in her entirety.

I've studied Glory's grounding image and coupled with many other images, which show a different story, I concluded the object mistaken for a davit is merely an illusion induced by the background tree branches on shore, or some other onboard structure not yet identified.

 

In thes images...her starboard davits are clearly tied together at the block head...with blocks clearly identified as well.  As you can see...the davits are no were near the mizzen shrouds in this image either.  Her davits are symmetrical from the stern and in this image of conversion you can clearly see the aft davit NOT in the mizzen shrouds and the forward davit just aft of the main channel.

 

I'm sorry Rich, but the natural course of symmetry and many clear images show and are evidence, Glory's davits are NOT mounted within her mizzen channels.  The mizzen channel mounting would be nearly an unusable location.... to swing boats from across the fore deck of the carriage house....?   You, and Mike IMHO are drawing this conclusion from one poorly representative image, which can easily be dismissed through deduction and the process of illumination.

 

One last image to prove the symmetry of her davits.  Look at the stern image of her...you can clearly see the symmetrical location of her davits....follow the mizzen shrouds to their end on their channels and you can clearly see neither aft davit has its origins there.  the port forward davit even cleaves next to the extra added backstay...furthering the evidence of other images.  This combined data can only lead one to conclude, as I have, that her davits are the same on both sides and that placing a davit within the mizzen channel would be, not only impractical, but unusable, given the location of the carriage house.

 

I hope you can see what I've diligently and carefully tried to point out .

 

Rob

Rob, one of the toughest challenges with this evaluation process is to admit to your own "confirmation bias." Which I am now compelled to do. It always seemed odd to me that a lifeboat davit would be mounted within the Shrouds but not being familiar with these vessels other than rudimentary glances and since it was also illustrated in Mike's book, I figured it had to be right. Now I have yet another correction to make of my supposedly "painstakenly accurate" 1:96th scale drawing.... Thanks a lot! 😉

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

 I notice the jackstays on the yards of your earlier Glory.  Were these used as handholds?  I might have misread a reference that sails could be bent to jackstays, unless it was talking about a vertical jackstay behind the first section of a mast where a spencer or spanker was attached.  Given the potential wind forces, I imagine that square sails would be more secure bent to the yard.  I'm still in a 'learning curve' - one reason I'm not proceeding with anything much right now.

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

 I notice the jackstays on the yards of your earlier Glory.  Were these used as handholds?  I might have misread a reference that sails could be bent to jackstays, unless it was talking about a vertical jackstay behind the first section of a mast where a spencer or spanker was attached.  Given the potential wind forces, I imagine that square sails would be more secure bent to the yard.  I'm still in a 'learning curve' - one reason I'm not proceeding with anything much right now.

Sails were bent to the jackstays.   I was experimenting with my first build and wanted to bend them to the front of the stays...so you could still see the stay.  On my Great Republic build I bent them to the top, which hides the stay from view, while it resides under the edge of the sail top band.

 

My new Glory will not have sails...her hull and its details are the main concern in this particular build.

 

Thanks for enquiring.

 

Rob

Edited December 2, 2021 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

4 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, one of the toughest challenges with this evaluation process is to admit to your own "confirmation bias." Which I am now compelled to do. It always seemed odd to me that a lifeboat davit would be mounted within the Shrouds but not being familiar with these vessels other than rudimentary glances and since it was also illustrated in Mike's book, I figured it had to be right. Now I have yet another correction to make of my supposedly "painstakenly accurate" 1:96th scale drawing.... Thanks a lot! 😉

Rich...like myself, your grasp of Glory's details evolves as you glean more detail and sometimes we are compelled to self-correct.

 

I hope my examples and that those examples, were clear enough for you to show you her correct configuration.  Images do not lie.  Our interpretation of one image may...but a compilation of many photographs that clearly point the truth out...though they may emotionally alarms us, and however inaccurate they may *feel*, MUST be the truth.

I assume Mike made the same conclusions you did, without cross referencing his many images to catalog her true configurations.

 

If anything, I am more relieved you came to the same conclusion as I, after a further detailed evaluation.   The re-draw is simply an inconvenience with lasting truthful consequences.   Believe me....I've corrected more then I wish to admit.  I'm sure there are more to come, before it's all said and done.

 

Thanks for hanging with me.....

 

Rob

Edited December 2, 2021 by rwiederrich