Planking, bulkhead not the same height

[Karkka]

Hi.

 

I´m trying to complete my build. But I ran into some problems. The bulk frame seems not to be in the same height, I have done after the manual when gluing them. Now when I´m about to start planking the hull I don't know what to do. I understand if it´s not going to look as the picture, but if someone have some idea how to make it look good it would be great.

 

The manual says I should put one plank 3 mm down on every frame but it´s not going to work. and if I´m going to later put one plank above it´s not going to touch the frame.

 

I had one idea to maybe saw of a little but i don't know if some frame are to high or to low.

[allanyed]

Karkka

Can you tell us what kit this is? 

If I understand correctly, the heights of the frames are not the same height which is as it should be.   They should be higher as you go forward and aft from the  (0) station at the point of the widest breadth.  The top planks should follow this curve, not be in a straight line like the red arrow you show in the first photo.   Look at any  body plan (one sample is below) and you will see that the  stations vary in height. Subsequently the tops of the frames will follow this same line as the stations. Note that if the strips (planks) provided in the kit are the same width their entire length they will need to be shaped along their length if they are to lay correctly.  Unfortunately most kits seem to forget this, which leads to planking on the model that is unlike anything that ever existed on a real ship or boat.   From the photos you posted from the kit, it is pretty clear they show planking that is unrealistic.   A contemporary drawing of a boat from NMM is below showing planking as was actually done so may be of some help to you.

Allan

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by allanyed

[Karkka]

It´s this kit

https://www.occre.com/model-ship/bounty-boat.html?___store=en&___from_store=en

 

It says easy kit for beginner.

 

As far as I can see from the pic 11of the planking it seems like they are going in a straight line and the frame are in the same level.

[allanyed]

Hi Karkka

With the angle of the photo it may difficult to see the curvature.  If it is a straight line it is not right.   For the time of the Bounty, at least, the planks don't lie on a horizontal line, same for the tops of the frames .  The pics I posted are contemporary so can be trusted to be correct.   Occre is not famous for accuracy in the design of their kits, but I think they do have the curvature based on your first photo.

Cheers

 

Allan

[Karkka]

I hope this new pic i better.

I maybe misunderstand you. I thought you mean my pic, but now I understand you mean the pic i the manual. I still keep this post.

I did some line on one of the pic, maybe I´m completely wrong about planking but I have no idea how do put this together.

 

It´s not like the manual.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Karkka

[allanyed]

For a first time build, maybe it is better if you follow the manual even if it is wrong.   At least you get some good practice and will learn some new things. The green line in the picture below is what you say the kit shows for the planking line.  The red line is what it should look like.   

For the future, it would be good to study some books on how these boats and ships were actually built, then study the kits that are out there that are faithful to actual practice.   I have no recent experience with kits, but from reading about them here at MSW, the best ones seem to be designed by Chuck Passaro, David Antscherl, and Chris Watton and his team.   For a comparison of a ship's boat like yours, look at pictures of the boat kit designed by Chuck and you will see what it supposed to look like.  One example of a build log that you may want to look at is  https://modelshipworld.com/topic/22234-18th-century-pinnace-by-delf-finished-model-shipways-124-scale-small/?tab=comments#comment-663400

Of course if you have the tools, you can always take the plunge and build from scratch.

Allan

 

[tlevine]

I would suggest that before you go any further, you look at build logs of other open boats from this era.  There are several builds of the Model Expo longboat that will help you understand the construction of your model, since it is very similar.  Syren's Medway Longboat is more complex but also provides good background information.

 

An excellent rule of thumb in kit building is that if the instructions make absolutely no sense, they are probably wrong.

[Hartron]

Just place the first plank so it forms a nice curve. The important thing is that the two sides are similar, and that the curve looks right. If it looks right it is mostly right.

[catopower]

Hello Karkka,

 

I'm familiar with the kit and the instructions are correct. You are trying to input your own assumptions about the build, which is not necessarily correct.

 

Others are right about the curvature of the boat. 

 

You'll need to bend the plank just enough to follow that nice curvature formed by the tops of the frames. Now, some frames may be off a little bit due to variation in how you glued them into place and also slight variations in the slots in the keel and the frames. So your plank may not be EXACTLY 3mm down from ALL of the frame tops. But, as long as its true for most of them, you'll be fine.

 

It's really not as complicated as it sounds. The planks are fine, the kit is fine, the instructions are fine. Just get that first plank curved and that sets the nice gentle curve for the next planks to follow.

 

The only thing that I wouldn't do from the instructions is to use a hammer and nails on open frames like that. I think you're more likely to snap a frame. I'd just glue the planks to the frames and use small spring clamps to hold them into place while the glue dries. 

 

[Karkka]

I have glued 3 planks. now the getting a "clink" because of the slight twist to glue them on the frame. 

 

Is this pdf good for every type of planking. I see that the are using paper with

markings. Maybe my planks don't follow the natural curvature that's why the must bend strange.

 

https://modelshipworldforum.com/resources/Framing_and_Planking/plankingprojectbeginners.pdf

 

P.11

[allanyed]

Sounds like you are trying to edge set a straight plank that has not been preshaped.  The easiest fix for you may be to soak the plank then TEMPORARILY pin it to the frames and let it dry for a day, or hit it with a hair dryer to speed it along.   The site you posted is nice but you might want to look at the planking tutorials here at MSW.   

Allan

 

[mtaylor]

I think the link Karkka posted is from the database.   Here's a link to the tutorials.  https://modelshipworld.com/forum/98-planking-downloads-and-tutorials-and-videos/

[Karkka]

13 hours ago, mtaylor said:

I think the link Karkka posted is from the database.   Here's a link to the tutorials.  https://modelshipworld.com/forum/98-planking-downloads-and-tutorials-and-videos/

Yes I did, but I had it on my computer.

[Karkka]

So. I did some planking-

 

Did a slight curve to the top plank, I hope it turns out look good.

 

How do I know in witch order to put the planks from here, and cut them. The middle plan that are alone I put it like the manual did.

 

 

[allanyed]

Karkka, I know this is a first build for you and you can expect some mistakes to happen.  Hopefully the advice you receive from the members here will be taken in good spirit as it surely is given in good spirit.

 

I hate to say it, but  I would remove all of the planks and start over.  If you used aliphatic glue, some water and/or alcohol will loosen up the glue.  If you used cyanoacrylate, acetone should dissolve it.  Then, before starting over, it would be good to thoroughly read the article you posted earlier. Pages 15-22 of the article explains about starting at the garboard plank and working up, but also shows how to mark out the strake lines on the frames and how they have to be tapered.   It is not an easy thing to do and takes practice, but if you follow any of the planking tutorials here at MSW in detail, you will have success.

 

Cheers

 

Allan

 

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by allanyed

[Karkka]

Garboard plank, Can´t figure out how to do with it. How do I know how long it should be at bow.

 

 

[Hartron]

Make sure it is long enough (too long), and then cut and file a large enough opening for the stempost.

[allanyed]

Hartron,

Why would there be an opening in the strake for the stem, or sternpost for that matter? 

 

Karkka,

 The stake should lay against the rabbet.  One needs to be careful not to take it too far up the stem, and giving it a Viking ship appearance like the lower plank in your last photo.    The sketch below shows where the garboard lays.  This is taken from a contemporary drawing at NMM so should be accurate.

 

Allan

Edited June 20, 2021 by allanyed

[Hartron]

16 minutes ago, allanyed said:

Hartron,

Why would there be an opening in the strake for the stem, or sternpost for that matter? 

 

Karkka,

 The stake should lay against the rabbet.  One needs to be careful not to take it too far up the stem, and giving it a Viking ship appearance like the lower plank in your last photo.    The sketch below shows where the garboard lays.  This is taken from a contemporary drawing at NMM so should be accurate.

 

Allan

There will be an opening between the starboard one and the port one, I think? Then if he makes them long enought to reach a bit into that opening, he can file and cut them until the stempost fits between them.

 

Artesania Latina generally does not use a rabbet, instead the keel and stem and sternpost fits between the planks, and are fitted after the planks.

[allanyed]

Thanks Hartron!

I still have no idea how this can possibly work and have accuracy.    Can you post photos of how this is done?    You mention "stem post."  Are you talking about the stern post aft  or the stem at the bow?  Probably your translator but I don't think there is such a thing as a stem post.   

Thanks again

Allan

 

[Hartron]

Stempost is from Brian Laverys book "Wooden Warship construction". But the arrow pointing to the part may point at another part than I think. What I mean (and what I think Lavery means) is the part which looks like a continuation of the keel, but curves upwards and forms the most forward part of the hull, at the ships centerline.

 

Inserting this after planking seems to be a common way to construct models (not just Artesania Latinis, but also a lot of other companies.)

 

This works with accuracey (it really does!) because the builder planks the hull with planks protruding out into the part which will later be filled by the stempost, then sands the end of the planks down until there is exactly enough space for the stempost, then glue the stempost into that space.

 

My guess is that this is a better method for mediocre and bad modelbuilders, while using a rabbet probably is better for excellent model builders.

 

This building log: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/26-san-ildefonso-by-sjors-finished-occre-wood-170/?tab=comments#comment-74

shows good pictures of the bow after planking without the stempost, and with the stempost fitted. (all relevant pictures is on the first page.)

Edited June 21, 2021 by Hartron
Forgot to mention which page to look at.

[allanyed]

Harton

Thank you very much for the clarification on the term stem post,,,,,,, live and learn 😀   

As to the method you describe, if it works, why not use it?   If one wants to become a better builder as you describe, do you think it would be better to learn proper construction techniques by following the methods the many excellent builders here use which are based on actual practice or go with the shortcuts and erroneous results from kit instructions?  I looked at the post you gave and unfortunately the planking as shown in the photo above is not remotely close to how it was done on an actual ship as far as I I know, be it Spanish, English, French or Dutch.    I may be wrong, and would welcome contemporary information if this kit style of planking was ever actually used in real life on these sailing men of war.     

Cheers

Allan

[Hartron]

The planking on that model is probably the way it is because he planned to copper it, consequently, the run of the planks was not important.

 

And teh point is not the run of the planks. That is independent of construction method. This way of bulding the model would work also if the planks was as they was done in the actual ship (except, of course, the planks could not enter the rabbet witht his construction, since there are no rabbet).

 

(This is used on a lot of kits, but I had to search many logs before actually finding one which showed how it is done, most logs only show it in profile. I did not bother to find one which also showed historical planks, as the planks is not what we are discussing.)