rigging shrouds and mast lengths

[Dr Syn]

Hi all, i've just perused the marvelous spreadsheet Period Ship Scale Tables and would like to ask a beginners question. Is the calculated mast length the total from one end to the other of that particular stick or is it say from the main deck to the top.

And another query on sequence of shroud builds. I see everywhere that the complete mast with all the tops,tressles and upper masts are assembled before fitting shrouds. Why aren't the shrouds fitted after a tressle/crosstree is fixed to that particular mast, and then place the platform on after shrouds are on, then work your way up to the top in a similar fashion . I would have thought it would be easier to make a pair of shrouds on the bench then slip it over the top and add the platform and topmast after?

Keep safe

Mick

 

[Gregory]

4 hours ago, Dr Syn said:

I see everywhere that the complete mast with all the tops,tressles and upper masts are assembled before fitting shrouds.

That is probably because many kit plans and instructions often present it that way.

 

If you dig a little deeper, you will find many build logs where that is not the case.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Gregory

[popeye2sea]

I personally build in exactly the fashion you describe. I am sure there are others that do the same. It's just a preference thing.

 

In fact, I even fit the yards before proceeding to the next mast section. For me it makes sense because usually the lower sections rigging is often the furthest inboard and therefore I don't have to reach across other lines to belay.

 

You will find what works best for you.

 

Regards,

[allanyed]

Hi Mick, 

 Are you referring to the spread sheets by Danny Vadas when you mention the set of tables?     I have found these by Vadas to be reliable except for part of the 17th century where the data is all wrong as the initial formula he used was incorrect.   Otherwise, the Vadas  spread sheet is based on the formulas and ratios in David Lees' book. 

 

The mast lengths in this spread sheet are based on Lees' formulas and the lower masts are based on the length from the step to the top of the mast.    

 

Allan 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dr PR]

The meaning of "mast length" depends upon the author, and unfortunately most seem to think you can read their minds. Lees is no exception - at least I can find no place in the book where he actually states a definition of mast length. However, by comparing his tables to some of the drawings it appears he means the total length of the mast (measured length) from the heel (step, foot) or very bottom of the mast to the top of the top cap.

 

Many authors use the "hounded length" for mast length, and one I came across used the length from the partners (deck) to the top of the top cap. When some say the "top" they are actually referring to the bottom of the doubling (the hounds) but most mean to the top of the top (doubling), or top of the top cap.

 

The term "hounds" is another vague term. Some authors say the hounds start about 2/3 the distance from the deck to the cross trees, others say it includes the cheeks, and yet others say the hounds are the bottom of the doubling where the cross trees are supported. And "hounding" means the distance from something (deck, foot) up to the hounds, whatever they are.

 

All the confusing, contradictory and conflicting definitions that people use - and assume everyone else knows exactly what they mean - gave me the greatest problems when trying to research how sailing ships were built. The meaning of many terms changes with time, so you have to know the period an author is talking about.

 

You must never take any meaning for granted, and if authors do not say specifically what a term means, you really have no idea what they are talking about.

 

Here is a drawing I made up to explain a lot of the terms used for ship's dimensions:

 

 

 

Since you are new to all this, remember that rope dimensions are usually given as circumference unless otherwise stated to be the diameter. But masts and spar thickness is always given in diameters.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Dr PR

[Dr Syn]

Thanks all, learning all the time. Thanks for the sketch, didn't someone famous say "a picture is worth a thousand words" 

 

[allanyed]

No one famous (except for this saying)     This modern version is attributed to American ad agency exec, Fred Barnard.   It is a paraphrase of several earlier versions.

 

Allan

[DaveBaxt]

Thank you for raising these questions as it is another reminder to me as I approach my second build with 18th century rigging that the last time I did the rigging was to build the masts and then attach the rigging whilst the mast were fitted on the ship. Although I managed to complete (apart from the rigging which is used for the sails )  rigging it was not without a few hurdles. I started from the center and worked outwards and also from the bottom to the top.                                This time I am thinking of trying a different approach. I do like the idea of attaching all the rigging to the masts away from the ship before attaching the masts and rigging to the ship but wonder if this would actually work in practice.

Great thread by the way and I hope you do not mind me adding my own thoughts on this subject. I hope you get the answers you require and good luck with your future builds. Best regards Dave