Cutty Sark by Dearborn - Sergal - 1:78

[Dearborn]

Ok, This is my Build Log.

First a bit of history as the images to be posted begins with my 4th build of this ship.

 

I have loved building Model ships ever since I was a kid (a very, VERY long time ago). 
My first was a half hull Cutty Sark that was placed on a plaque and then wall mounted, I was in 7th and 8th grades for this one..

 

 

My next attempt was when I was in High School, a 'Revell' Plastic Cutty Sark Model that went very well, but didn't hold up well over the years and is now gone forever. No picture that I can find of that one.
My 3rd attempt is the 1:78 Cutty Sark wood planked ship by 'ARKIT'. I started it back in 1988 while in the U.S. Navy, but when they shipped my model home when I discharged, it was destroyed. 
So attempt 4 (and current) is a 1:78 Wood 'Sergal' model of the Cutty Sark.
I have Been working on mine for a while, I laid down the keel On this latest attempt in 1993, assembling and planking the Hull. I got the hull sanded and painted. 
But when it came to mark the copper plating line, I took a loooong break from it as I was afraid I didn't have the skills then. (that was 29 years ago).

This is where I stopped for this long 29 year hiatus:

 

 

In between these years I have been honing my wood working skills better. Here are some examples:

 

 

Now it's 2022 and I have a renewed desire to get back at it. I designed a jig to cut the line to mark the top of the copper plating line. 
I then Taped off the upper part of the hull right down to the line I scribed. I then painted the lower part a copper color. 
You see, I have seen other models that have been plated but the plates are next to impossible to get them perfectly in place without tiny gaps. 
These gaps I saw had shown with the black paint showing through where the plating was not as close as it could have been. Hence, I painted the under side copper so any gaps would be invisible. 
I'm now at that point where I need to glue on the hundreds of plates to the hull.

Which brings me up to date with the newest pictures:

 

 

If any are wondering why I painted the hull copper first, I have a good reason. I have been looking around at other folks that built this ship and notice that the copper plates were not applied perfectly and the black under coating of the hull was showing through. So I wanted to make sure that didn't happen here, So I painted it the same color as the hull plates, so If they don't go on perfectly, the seams are still hidden.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Dearborn
Fix a typo (I do that a lot)

[hof00]

Nice one Chap!!

Looking really good.

I painted my Cutty Hull also a Copper color prior to plating. 

I think that you only have about 2,500 plates to install.

 

I'll watch with interest.

 

Cheers....HOF.

[Dearborn]

2 hours ago, hof00 said:

I painted my Cutty Hull also a Copper color prior to plating

Thanks!  (I guess great minds think alike)

[allanyed]

Dearborn

The painted bottom looks great and might be best left as is unless you have accurate looking sheathing.  The vast majority of copper bottomed models in the build logs have out-of-scale copper sheathing with the giant pimples or huge etched marks that are supposed to represent 1/4" nails.  Amati offers two types, one being the more common out of scale stuff we see on so many models, but they make some realistic materials as well.   https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/4392-04-Set-of-Copper-Hull-Plates-17x5mm-1-72-Scale-A4392_04.html#SID=1061    You can also make your own with copper tape which requires no gluing and marking the TINY nail indentations with a properly sized pounce wheel. The pic below is from a build log here at MSW.  You can easily see the difference between this realistic plating and the more common plating in the second picture.  If you keep in mind these plates were overlapped horizontally and vertically and note the attached with 1/4" nails that have 1/2" heads ( (0.007"at 1:72) you can decide which you feel is more realistic.   A photo of nails from the copper sheathing on the Bounty next to a two pence piece is below.

 

[Dearborn]

4 hours ago, allanyed said:

The painted bottom looks great and might be best left as is unless you have accurate looking sheathing.  The vast majority of copper bottomed models in the build logs have out-of-scale copper sheathing with the giant pimples or huge etched marks that are supposed to represent 1/4" nails.

The plates that came with my model are the same as what you showed in the second picture.  I do love the look you showed on the hull (First picture). Yes I'm going for as realistic as possible. As it is I have already made some changes to the forecastle deck. Under it for the anchor chains the model would have had me just glue a board to block the area under the upper deck. So I fabricated custom bulkheads. when I get home from work, I'll take some pictures of what I'm talking about.

 

Thanks greatly for your observations and advice. I will be plating the hull with copper but I think a bit of research is in order to choose the best method for the greatest look and impact.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Dearborn
Fixed a typo(I do that a lot)

[Dearborn]

The copper plates that came with my kit measures 15x5 mm, I'll post up a picture of them, but I'm not crazy about the bolt pattern on them. The link you provided is out of stock, I hope to find a number I can call to see if they will get more.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Dearborn

[allanyed]

Below is a photo of plating on CS.  You can decide which of the scale sizes of plates you shop for are most appropriate.   I cannot speak for CS, but the RN plating was typically 48"x15" with a 1.5" overlap much like done with roof shingles.  If this holds true for CS the shingles should be about 0.2" X 0.67".  The sketch below is based on the details from Goodwin in his book, The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War.

Allan

  

[hof00]

Hi All,

Just for the record, I used the "Sergal" plates on my Cutty.

I wasn't too fussed about getting it 100% accurate, but accurate enough.... 🙂

Now a few years on, it still looks good and is very slowly getting a "Patina."

 

I certainly do not wish to detract from other opinions here, it's what I had to hand, provided with the kit. At the time of the build, I was not, at that stage, a member of this awesome forum, so "Flying by the seat of my pants.... 🙂)" (My Cutty build log for reference is under HOF00 on this site and has a gallery here also.)

 

Cheers....HOF.

[Dearborn]

this is all great information here, I'm now glad i waited 30 years to plate the hull..🤣.

This is going to be better than I thought it could be.

I was going to just use the plates that came with the kit,

 

but seeing the newer better plates that have been developed, I'll be needing to get them for a much better built and look. I also would have just butted the plates up against each other instead of over lapping them a tiny bit for a more realistic look.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Dearborn
Added a Picture

[Dearborn]

Here are few pictures I took of the Cutty Sark Hull (the real ship)

[allanyed]

Great pics, thanks for posting.  Obviously no big bumps or other types of markings other than the little nails used.  Not sure if this has come up on any posts concerning the copper sheathing, but I imagine if the real sheathing had huge bumps like on most of the kit supplied plating, there would be as much drag on the hull as a hull fouled with barnacles and seaweed which no sailor would want.

 

Allan

Edited March 5, 2022 by allanyed

[Dearborn]

Thanks, I'll be posting up more pictures I took of the CS as my build progresses

[LeoM]

Hello John,

Welcome to the Cutty Sark club and thanks for posting your progress. I will be following with great interest.

It seems a good idea to first paint the hull with copper paint, but I wonder if it makes the gluing more troublesome. Personally I think I will go for "Muntz" plating and therefore I intend to apply a brass paint coat to the plating once finished (I am not there yet as still fairing the hull 😉).

[Dearborn]

2 hours ago, LeoM said:

t seems a good idea to first paint the hull with copper paint, but I wonder if it makes the gluing more troublesome.

I have already thought of that and I planned to scuff it up a tiny bit to give the plates and glue to adhere to.

 

I just found a current picture of the CS' hull, it looks like they put it under glass and shined up the plating. But if you zoom in and look closely, you can see that the over lapping of the plating was done from the top down, You can see that the second row from the top is overlapping the top row.

If you looks closely enough you sac see that the aft top row was trimmed to maintain the water line.

 

[Dearborn]

So, The copper plates mentioned above :

https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/4392-04-Set-of-Copper-Hull-Plates-17x5mm-1-72-Scale-A4392_04.html#SID=1061

are "Temporarily Unavailable" at this point. but the cost at $21.51 USD is not a bad price.

Doing some calculations, I counted out 50 of the plates that came with my kit and weighed them.

50 plates = 4.81g. I then weighed the remainder of the plates all at once which came out to 241g. Take 241 and divide by 4.81 it comes out to 50.1 (groups of 50)

 Multiply the first 50 and the resulting 50 I got from my rudimentary math skills, I come up with 2,500 plates total needed for the build.

On 3/4/2022 at 2:11 AM, hof00 said:

Nice one Chap!!

Looking really good.

I painted my Cutty Hull also a Copper color prior to plating. 

I think that you only have about 2,500 plates to install.

WOW Hof, you are right on the money on that one!

 

Anyway the plates as stated in the link above come in sets of 500 (well 518, but I'm rounding down to allow for errors and cutting)

So I would need 5 sets of these at a price of $21.51 USD. or about $110.00+ shipping.

I did sent off an email to Cornwall Model Boats and asked if they will (and when) they will get them back in stock. I'll wait for a reply before moving forward on plating.

Now I did managed to find another source of these same exact plates but at a huge cost (slightly more than double at $55.80) per pack of 500).

https://www.woodenmodelshipkit.com/product/439204-set-of-copper-hull-plates-17x5mm-172-scale-2/

Needless to say I will NOT be paying out that amount.

In the event I cannot get the plates from Cornwall, I may be using (albeit reluctantly) the plates that came with my kit.

Only time will tell - heck, I already waited 30 years to get to this point, another week or two, cant hurt much, right?

Edited March 6, 2022 by Dearborn
Fix a typo (I do that a lot)

[Keith Black]

DB, have you considered using copper tape and a pounce wheel?  If you MSW search you'll find several discussions regarding same. It makes for a clean look with a lot less work and a heck of a lot cheaper. 

[Dearborn]

Have not considered that yet. (what is a "pounce wheel?")

[Keith Black]

1 minute ago, Dearborn said:

what is a "pounce wheel?

 It makes indentations in the tape to mimic nail heads. 

[Dearborn]

So, I got an email back from the site shown above and was told that they would not be getting another shipment from 'Amanti' (an Italian company) for a few months from now. So I went to the Amanti site and they sell them at a much cheaper price BUT will not ship to the USA.. ? what? WHY??.  Anyway, further searching I fount the tape style an $30.00 per roll for 500 plates. (I need 2500) So that ain't gonna fly either.

In the end I'm going to use the plates that came with my kit. So looking back that the plates that @allanyed posted are different than the ones I currently have. His have larger nail 'bumps' and only 5 across the top, mine are small and have 8 across the top (you can go back and see the ones I posted and compare). Laying out a few in the proper pattern on my work surface and standing back, they look just fine. So, that is what I'm going to do and start moving forward.

[Keith Black]

 DB, I certainly respect your decision to go with the copper plates provided with the kit. I'm sure you'll do a fantastic job using them. But where others might be dissuaded because of the cost for tape I'm providing the below link for copper tape much cheaper than $30.00 per roll. $8.99 for 22 yards is a much better price. I've also provided a MSW link showing how Daniel used copper tape. I also have provided a YouTube vid showing how to make copper plates from tape. There are more YouTube vids showing how to make plates and how to apply copper plates. 

 

https://modelexpo-online.com/14-x-22yds-Copper-Tape-06mm-x-6mm-x-20m_p_810.html

 

 

[Dearborn]

wow, thanks! I'll looks into that first before moving on. I do love the resources here.

[Dearborn]

my scale is 1:78, so I don't think that the 1:84 isn't too far off the mark.  Would you happen to know the dimensions on these plates?

[Keith Black]

51 minutes ago, Dearborn said:

Would you happen to know the dimensions on these plates?

 Which plates or those, DB? 

[Dearborn]

Well I really like the look of the plates in the video. The nail patterns only on one side of each - that give the look of them being over lapped without going through the motions of actually over lapping them. The video title states they are 1:84 scale

[Keith Black]

I've got no clue as to their dimensions, sorry. 

[Dearborn]

That's ok, just wondered, I will watch the video and see what I can come up with.

[Dearborn]

Quick question about scale. (I'm real bad at math - it ain't my best friend here)

working with the scale of my model 1:78 - is that 1 inch to every 78 inches, or 1 foot to every 78 feet, or is that the same?

 

Another question: Is there any body that knows the actual height and length of a single copper plate on the CS? If not, is there anybody in or around Greenwich England that can go measure me one?

You see I decided to order the copper rolls of the plates and a punch wheel to make my own and I want to get the scale correct.

 

Thanks in advance,

John

[Bob Fraser]

HI John

Found this on fleabay CS Muntz Plate that is full width and 1/5th length.

The blurb says width is  16" and full length would have been 48" max.

 

This is Jock Willis very detailed specs for the CS Specs see item 58 for weights of yellow metal (Muntz) used.

The home page of the above CuttySark has a photo of such a plate being applied to the hull close to the keel and rudder.

Detail says the overlap should be 1"

 

Hope this helps!

 

[Dearborn]

Thanks @Bob Fraser this information is just incredible.

[Veszett Roka]

10 hours ago, Dearborn said:

Quick question about scale. (I'm real bad at math - it ain't my best friend here)

working with the scale of my model 1:78 - is that 1 inch to every 78 inches, or 1 foot to every 78 feet, or is that the same?

 

Hi John,

 

thats the same, and you're correct. If you measure an inch on the model, thats 78 inches on the real thing. Or, other words: a foot long model would be a 78 feet long boat in the reality. If you have a Bavaria 35 yacht which is exactly 35 feet long, its model will be 35/78=0.448 feet, so 5.378 inches in 1:78 scale.

If someone can give you the exact plate sizes, just divide them by 78 and you will get the scale size.