Frigate Diana by RossR - OcCre - 1:85

[OllieS]

2 hours ago, RossR said:

 

 

First item I can't seem to figure out is the name of the triangle shaped sail that is attached above the driver on the diagram below.  I am also struggling to determine the names of the lines used on the stay sales.  The diagram shows two lines that start at  the upper corner.  One goes up through a block on the stay and then down to the deck the other goes down along the stay through a block on the mast and to the deck.  I am not sure what purpose the second line serves.  It would seem to me to make more sense if it was attached to the sail near the top forward corner.  The remaining lines are at the bottom of the sail, one forward and two aft.  The purpose of these lines makes more sense, but I still would like to know what to call them.  

Okay I'm no expert at all so please correct me; but the driver is also called the spanker so that triangular sail would be the spanker topsail.

The second rope you mention makes sense when you know is called a downhauler the other being the halyard.

The lower ropes are sheets and tack (s) in the normal way just like a square sail.

 

Somebody knowledgable will tell you about the blocks but using what you happen to have also makes sense.

 

By the way those gunports don't look usable to me; I would probably make some nice stained wooden ones. I am a fan of Occre but their fittings let them down badly: they range from poor to unusable I think.

Edited March 15, 2023 by OllieS
typo

[RossR]

The quality of the gun port casting is actually really good.  I just don't care for the finish they used.  I will paint them and see how they look after that.  

 

Thanks for the info on the lines.  

[Esap]

Hi RossR, how is that first planking coming along? With respect to your comment that it isn't going quite as you originally hoped, as a beginner I am quite interested in hearing more regarding the challenges you ran into. I hope you will be able to share some of the lessons you have learned. Is it significantly different to how things were with the Beagle?

[RossR]

Thanks for checking in.  I have sanded down the first layer of planking and have some gaps and a few low spots to fill in with filler and then more sanding.  I did a better job of shaping the bulkheads than I did on my beagle.  I had to do quite a bit of filling to fix the bow shape on the Beagle.   Except for being bigger, the process is very similar to the Beagle.   I will get some pictures posted soon, before I start the second layer.  

 

What are you currently building?

[RossR]

23 minutes ago, Esap said:

With respect to your comment that it isn't going quite as you originally hoped, as a beginner I am quite interested in hearing more regarding the challenges you ran into. I hope you will be able to share some of the lessons you have learned

The challenges I had related to trying to deviate from the Occre instructions and attempting to follow a more authentic planking method.  I struggled to implement the edge bending technique from Chuck Passaro's videos.  I am not sure the planks that come with the Occre kit are too thick, or if not having a rabbet created the issue.  I ended up following the Occre instructions.  

 

I still want to learn the "proper" technique and have decided to build the NRG Half Hull project before I build my next full ship, but that will be a year to two in the future.  

[Esap]

On a double-planked hull it is probably less important to do it 'correctly' on the first planking layer, other than as a learning experience. I have seen many others go with the easiest way they can find to get the first planking sorted and then try get all planks starting at the rabbet (or where a rabbet would be...) on the 2nd planking instead.

I am just a newbie finishing off the Occre Albatros as my very first build. Like you I tried to do it the 'right' way on the first planking and only partially succeeded, but for the 2nd planking layer tried hard to follow the edge-bending method to get the right look. I made a post on the forum about it actually as I initially struggled to find a way to edge bend such ultra-thin Sapeli strips, but eventually realised you can just press an Iron onto them to force them down and it does the job. Perhaps you should still experiment with this approach when you do your 2nd planking layer rather than wait solely for the half hull project. I found it perhaps medium difficulty with the thin strips as an absolute beginner, but with the Iron it worked out well. You can see my topic on it here: 

Overall I have found that I am enjoying the build experience but am constantly looking ahead, dreaming of bigger and more impressive ships. I am just uncertain whether I really should make a huge jump from the little Albatros to something sizeable or whether I should take a few intermediate steps along the way. For that reason I am particularly interested in experiences like what you are running into here, seeing how difficulty scales with ship size.

[RossR]

Wow, really impressed that you are edge bending the thin final plank layer.   I wasn’t going to try that.   I wanted to do the first layer as practice only.   Do you have a build log for your model?    If not there is a forum for occasional in progress posts.   I would love to see your model.   

[RossR]

 

Well I finally have the first layer installed sanded and some filler applied to smooth things out. 

 

Next steps are to clean up the gun port openings on the upper decks, and then install the pre-cut inner bulwarks.  After those are installed I am going to add one final coat of shellac to the decks.  Then the outer layer of planking.   Occre supplies Sycamore for above the wales and Sapelli under the wales and below.  The wales will be African Walnut.  

 

 

 

 

Home projects have slowed me down a little bit, but hope to have the final planking done in the next month or so.

 

 

 

 

[RossR]

I installed the inner bulwarks today.  Feels like the first real progress in a long time.  the parts were laser cut plywood and bending the two for the bow were a little tricky.  The narrow parts above the opening for the cathead were only 2-3 mm wide.  Very fragile after soaking to make the bend.  On one of the two pieces I almost broke the piece clamping it to my form to create the curve for the bow.  I think there was only one layer of the plywood that was still intact.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I applied a coat of Minwax Golden Oak stain and two coats of shellac.  Below is where the one bow piece almost broke.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is another view of the piece that almost broke and a view of the gun ports after I cleaned up the gun ports with a file.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Next up will be installing the sycamore outer planking  above the wales.  

Edited April 13, 2023 by RossR

[RossR]

Progress continues.   I have the sycamore second planking installed.   The material that Occre supplies is very thin.  Parts list says 0.6mm, but I measured it at less than 0.5mm.   For material this thin I use contact cement.   You get 100% coverage of the surface area so no edges curl up and it sticks as soon as you apply any pressure.   
 

I applied Minwax Golden Oak stain, and will later add at least a couple coats of coats of Shellac. 
 

next up is applying the sapelli planking on the rest of the hull. 
 

[RossR]

I am making progress on the sapelli planking below the sycamore.  This material is a little difficult to work with, very thin, I measured it at just under .5 mm, and a little brittle.  I will need to patch a few small areas near the bow the split when I was trimming.  

 

Next up is the wales.

 

[RossR]

I mixed a new batch of shellac to finish the hull.  I am still fairly new to using shellac and I have seen some conflicting opinions on how long to keep shellac after it is mixed.  The previous batch is only about 5 months old, but it is considerably yellower compared to the new batch.  I am not sure if the yellowing is a function of age, or if it is a result of it becoming more concentrated as some of the alcohol evaporates.  I will keep the older shellac and use it for sealing wood prior to painting or for securing knots on my rigging.  

 

If the yellowing is only a result of evaporation, can someone simply add more alcohol?  It would be difficult to know how much to add to maintain a 2 Lb cut.  What do others do with thier shellac as it ages?  The picture below shows the difference between the old and new shellac.  Both were mixed from the same batch a dried shellac at a 2 Lb cut.

 

[RossR]

I installed the wales this week.  The material supplied by the Occre was African Walnut (I will have more to say about that later in the post).  To put the bend in these planks at the bow, I used a two step process suggested in a forum titles "Bending African Walnut".  I need to achieve an approximate 90 degree bend with a 2 inch radius.  The wood is stiffer than the lime wood used for the first layer of planking so I was a little nervous about bending that much.  I soaked the planks in hot water for about 1/2 hour then clamped them on to a form to create a 4 inch radius.  The next day I soaked it again and was able to easily clamp them onto the smaller form to create the 90 degree bend with the 2 inch radius.   I maybe could have successfully created the bend in one step if I used heat, but I am still new to modeling and have struggled using heat.  I think I need to be more patient.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are 4 planks per side, and the second plank is cut into segments to create 12 small openings per side.  I assume these openings are for potentially using oars to move the ship if conditions warrant, but I am not positive.  

 

I still have a little more sanding to do and the wales will be trimmed at the stern to accommodate the cast pieces that make up the base for the gallery lights.  Eventually the wales will be painted black.  

 

 

 

 

Regarding the African Walnut supplied by Occre.  I posted on the "Bending African Walnut" topic a couple weeks ago that I had "success" with the two step process.  Then about two days ago the post started getting some replies.  For a reason I don't understand most of the replies were negative towards the African Walnut wood.  Some were constructive suggesting alternatives, but some were not constructive and were critical of Occre for supplying this material suggesting that it was a cost cutting measure.  

 

I suspect that the African Walnut was the most expensive wood in the kit.  I found it to be of very high quality.  The wood bent successfully using a two step process and it was not at all fuzzy as one of the posters suggested.  I think the criticism of Occre was unwarranted and uninformed.  I think the wood was chosen for the wales because it holds a very crisp corner and that was the look that the creator wanted when they designed the model.  

 

I am saying all of this because I don't want other modelers to be afraid of any kit that uses this wood.  I would be delighted to use more of this species in my models.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RossR]

Today I added what the instructions called the rubbing strakes.  They are made up of a piece of 1mm x 4mm sapelli and a 2mm x 2mm piece of sapelli.  The 2 x 2 piece has to be shaped on one side to give it a round profile.  I purchases the tool below from Artesania Latina.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are several notches that can be used to carve different profiles into various sizes of wood strips.  I used the half round notch to shape the 2 x 2 piece.  

 

It was a little tricky gluing the half round piece onto the 1 x 4 piece without getting glue on some spots that were unintended.   I will need to clean up a few spots before it gets is shellac finish.  

 

[RossR]

I have the the wales painted black and applied 3 coats of shellac to the unpainted surfaces on the hull.  Next up is lining the gun ports on the upper decks.  This will require an slight edge bend on a 2mm x8mm piece of Sapalli for the top of rail.  

 

 

 

 

 

[CiscoH]

your shellac finish looks so good!  deep vibrant colour without obscuring the wood.

a while ago you asked how long mixed shellac lasts.  its usually a few weeks, maybe a month or 2.  eventually it gets gummy and wont fully dry out when put on a surface.  

 

anyway, great looking hull.  thanks for posting

cisco

[RossR]

Thanks for the feedback and info on the shelf life of shellac.   I love that you can mix small batches and always have a fresh supply to work with.  

[RossR]

Making progress on the trim on the bulwarks and around the gun ports.   The first step was lining the gun ports.  1mm x 6 mm sapelli strips were used for this.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Next step was the cap above the section with no bulwark and the top of bulwark on the back half of the the ship.  These were made out of 2mm x 8mm sapelli strips.  Both have a slight bend.  The bend was slight enough that I could manually bend the strip the required amount, but with the 2 x 8 strip the force of the strip to snap back to straight was pretty great.  I considered manually bending the strip and using CA to glue them into place, but I have read that CA does not hold good against shear forces.  I considered PVA which holds better against shear forces, but I couldn't think of a good way to clamp the pieces into place.  My solution was to pre-bend the pieces and then glue with  CA.  for the slight bend in the mid-ship pieces where there is no bulwark, I clamped it against the straight piece of wood after soaking for 30 minutes with a small shim used to create the curve.  For the piece above the bulwark on the rear portion of the ship, I clamped the piece to the bulwark after soaking to create the curve needed.  I used scrap wood to protect the ship and the piece being bent from the clamps.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The next step was to fabricate curves that connect the different levels of the bulwarks.  I used several small pieces that were beveled to fit together and then used a small file to create the curve.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The lower curve needs a little more sanding and then two more coats of coats of shellac on all of it.

 

One of the reasons I chose this kit was because of features like this that require me to improve my skills working with the wood.  Overall I am pretty happy with how these curves are turning out.  I need to still create the two on the other side of the ship and then two more near the bow.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by RossR

[RossR]

I finished the trim on the rear part of the ship, and I am pretty happy with how that turned out.  next, I am giving a light sanding and one final coat of shellac to the deck.  I put a few marks into the deck finish while sanding and filing the trim features, so hoping a light sanding and another coat will help.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Next is the trim around the gun ports on the bow.  I am calling these gun ports, but the kit does not have guns for this section of the ship.  This part of the build will also include fabricating and installing the cathead.  The instructions from Occre have you cut the top part of the bulwark above the cathead out and then attach the fully fabricated cat head on the ship (see picture below).  Since all of the planking is on and finished, I don't want to cut that away.  I have been making a few dry runs at assembling the cathead in place without cutting away the planking.  

 

 

The other odd thing about the cathead is the pictures in the instructs appear tohave the cathead angling forward at about 30 degrees, but the plans clearly show a forty five degree angle.  I will go with the 45 degree angle on mine.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Since very little of the piece that extends out from the hull is supported by the hull, I am going to add a pin to help secure it to the larger piece.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by RossR

[RossR]

One more challenge with the bow section is related to finishing the material provided with the kit.   Most of the trim is Sapelli.  For the bow a laser cut piece of plywood (looks like birch) is provided to accommodate the curve on the bow.   
 

 

finishing these pieces to look like Sapelli is a challenge.  I originally tried to match the bare Sapelli.  A mix of Provincial and Gunstock stain came pretty close.  
 

 

however, when Sapelli is finished with Shellac it takes on a darker rich color.  Covering the stained plywood with shellac didn’t produce the same dark rich color.   
 

I bought some Red Mahogany stain but is wasn’t quite right.   I then applied the Provincial stain first, then added a coat of the Red Mahogany, and after a couple coats of shellac it was pretty close.  
 

 

I think it will take 4, maybe 5 coats of shellac to get the richness, but this should work.   
 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by RossR

[RossR]

I have the cathead installed.  I still need to add a touch of black paint to represent the sheaves.  I am pretty happy with how this turned out.  
 

Edited May 23, 2023 by RossR

[RossR]

After staining and finishing the laser cut pieces for the bow, I was not happy with the look of the edges.   The middle layer of the plywood ended up almost black.
 

I had recently acquired a scroll saw from my father, so I decided to attempt to cut replacements out of piece of 3/32 basswood. 
 

I am pretty happy with the outcome.   I need to go back to the drawing board on figuring out a stain that will match the Sapelli.  
 

[RossR]

I had today free to work on my ship.  Plans changed when my wife was shopping and stopped at a business that was having a moving sale.  She found two 6 ft x 2 ft butcher block tables and picked them up for an upgrade to the shipyard.  I had been doing my work at a small desk in the back of our family room.  She also generously gave up her home office for me to set up my new shipyard.  It will take me a little time to get everything organized the way I want, but this is way more room than what I had before.  Looking forward to the new space.

 

 

[CiscoH]

now Thats a great wife

[RossR]

Today I made some progress on the ship.  The new shipyard is working great.  my work light set up still.  

 

A couple of posts ago I had cut out new cap rails (I think that is the correct term) for the bow section out of basswood after not caring for the way the plywood pieces looked on the edges.  I struggled to get the color of the basswood close the sapelli that was used for the rest of the cap rail.  Then I was driving past a hobby shop and stopped in and found a piece of 3/32 mahogany.  I re-cut the cap rail out of the mahogany and was much happier with the result.  

 

 

 

After getting the cap rails installed I added some of the other features that need to be installed before the head can be fabricated.  I had to carve the posts next to the cathead and added some items to the stem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by RossR

[RossR]

I have made some progress on the head.  The head is made up of an upper and lower head rail and four supports that are mounted on the stem and support the grating.  The upper head rail needs a slight bend right at the point it is secured to the bow.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The supports were oversized allowing the building to trim them so they fit tightly between the two upper head rails.  The get the supports cut to the right size I temporarily pinned the upper rails in place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After getting the supports cut to size, I painted all of the parts and used CA to glue the head rails to the bow and the tips of the head rails to each other along with attaching them to each of the four supports.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I will need to touch up a few spots of paint  Next steps will be adding braces across the supports and adding the lower head rail.  The lower head rail will be challenging.  The part needs to be bent to fit the curve of the bow for the first 1/3 of the part then it needs to twist 45 degrees so it can be secured to the underside of the four supports.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by RossR

[RossR]

I have made progress on the head, but not without a few problems.  Earlier when I glued the upper head rails on, positioned the front tips a little too high.  I needed to shim the braces that sit on the stem with a thin piece of .06 mm wood.  When I added the pieces below that are painted black to the top of the upper head they seamed to pull the head rails even higher leaving a gap between the stem and the braces for the grating.  See the red arrows below.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

At first I wasn't too worried about this, but I realized that by raising the grating higher it was going to interfere with the bowsprite.  To deal with this I needed to cut a channel in the grating to make room for the bowsprite.

 

 

I also struggled to properly bend the lower head rail.  This peice needed to be bent to follow the curve of the bow and then bend sharply towards the tip of the stem.  A twist in this part of the head rail was required so that the head rail could be glued to the bottom of the braces on the stem.  The bend along the bow was not hard to achieve, but the piece broke where the sharp bend towards stem and the twist was needed.  I ended up fabricating this out of two pieces, (see blue arrow above) and I am not thrilled with the point were the two pieces meet and might try to figure out a way to make that look better.  

 

I also have the posts attached to the cap rail.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

These were carved from a 4mm x 4mm piece of limewood using a file and a carving tool with a dremel  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I added a pin to help hold them secure to the cap rail.  

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by RossR

[RossR]

I still need to do the touch up work on the head, but I decided to take a break from the head and start work on the 12 pound guns for the lower gun deck. The kit has ten 12 pounders that are complete with a gun carriage, and I think 14 false barrels for the rest of the gun ports on the lower gun deck.  First step was to assemble the carriages from the laser cut sheet.  I assembled the 12 and 6 pounders that go on the upper gun deck.

 

 

I filled in the gaps with some filler and then painted the carriages a dark red.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Next up was building the axles.  There were two sizes of wheels.  I assumed that the smaller wheels were all for the 6 pound carriages and the bigger wheels for the twelve pounders.  I assembled all of the smaller wheels on axles that fit on the 6 pound guns only to realize that the smaller wheels were also needed for the rear wheels on the 12 pound carriages.  I had to cut the axles apart to get them to fit on the bigger 12 pound carriages.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I decided that I wanted to rig the guns.  I think a lot of people on the this forum might suggest not doing that on a 1:85 scale model, and they might be right, but with this model I wanted to do things that I didn't do on my first model, so I am going to add the rigging to the guns.  You will also notice something odd with one of the wheels on the picture below.  I lost one of the wheels and didn't want to wait for a replacement, so I repurposed a leftover deadeye from my HMS Beagle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Attaching the blocks to the ship was a real challenge given the deck that overhung the gun deck.  I am hoping to rig my ship as it might have looked in action, so I decided to show the lines for the gun tackle laying on the deck as opposed to neatly coiled up.  I did have to abandon the hook that attached to block at the rear of the gun to the ring on the deck because the two blocks were too close together with the hook.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RossR]

Progress has been slow, lots going on this summer outside the shipyard including a few rounds of golf.  yesterday I had my best score in over a decade which was a little unexpected.  I usually run out of gas after about 14 holes, but on Saturday I managed to keep it together for 18.  

 

I have managed to finish the lower gun deck.  I do need to address the grates that are installed.  I started this this project about the same time I discovered the Model Ship World Forum.  I sometimes like to finish a few small items before I start the hull and planking, and that took the form of the grates on this model.  I built them according to the instructions from Occre with the mitered joints.  I soon learned on the forum that mitered joints is not the authentic way to build these. 

 

I have enough material left to attempt to build the grates on the upper deck the correct way, and that is my intention, but I decided to leave the lower deck grates as is.  These will be difficult to see on the final model as the ships boats will be mounted above the opening in the upper deck.  That argument probably works against my decision to rig the cannons, but that was more about the experience of doing it that the visual that will be difficult to see.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[allanyed]

10 hours ago, RossR said:

I built them according to the instructions from Occre with the mitered joints.  I soon learned on the forum that mitered joints is not the authentic way to build these. 

It is fantastic that you researched this.    Having done that I am guessing you realize gratings themselves look nothing like those from the kit.   You can make or get more realistic grating materials to go with the head ledges and coamings that you will be making.   I have only seen realistic looking after market gratings  from Syren, but hopefully there are others available as well.  Key things to remember are that the openings are typically 3" or smaller, there are no openings in the grating next to the head ledges and coamings, and the battens run fore and aft, not athwartships.  It might be preferable to make the gratings first, as close as possible to the size needed, then build the frame of coamings and head ledges around the grating.  Note that the head ledges and gratings round up on British ships.  Not sure if it was the same on Spanish ships like your Diana 1792.

Allan