popeye2sea Posted February 23, 2015 Share #1591 Posted February 23, 2015 Not having seen the plans, I really could not say. But I do think that problems arise with the rigging if people are not sure of the purpose of each line. The rigging of these ships is actually very straightforward and logical if you think about what is needed to control each yard and sail. For instance, look at the various rigging plans that omit the sheaves or holes for the tacks and sheets, or have them leading in on the wrong deck. The tacks and sheets are coming from points far outboard of the ship. It would be a very poor lead to bring them directly over the gunwale to a cleat. Therefore they must come through the hull at some point. Also, on the Constitution at least, there were no lines worked from the gun deck so plans that show them leading in there are incorrect. Now, you may notice that the tacks and sheets seem to rub against the shrouds at times, but consider that they would only do this when the course was clewed up or furled and therefore there would be no tension on them. When these sails were set the tacks and sheets would run far enough outboard to clear everything. A line called a "timenoguy" was sometimes rigged from the top of the anchor stock to the side of the ship to keep the fore tack from falling behind it and getting fouled. That would be the closest thing in concept to what was described in the posts above. Any line that does not give a fair lead for it's intended purpose is probably wrong. The Bo'sun would probably flog the sailor that did that. HIPEXEC and GLakie 2 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLakie Posted February 23, 2015 Share #1592 Posted February 23, 2015 Thanks for the info Henry. That makes perfect sense to me. Research---Then research some more. HIPEXEC 1 Quote GEORGE Don't be bound by the limits of what you already know, be unlimited by what you are willing to learn. Member of the Nautical Research Guild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIPEXEC Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share #1593 Posted February 23, 2015 Now you all see why my rigging has slowed down.....I must figure out how these square riggers sailed. I'm reading all the Patrick O'Brian books starting with Master and Commander to help me, as well as all of you. Thanks! GLakie 1 Quote Rich Rich USS Constitution by hipexec (Finished build) Virginia Pilot Boat 1805 (gallery - first build) USS Syren (USS Argus) by Hipexec Joshua Slocum's Spray by HIPEXEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted February 23, 2015 Share #1594 Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Rich, It's not all that difficult. Once you figure out one yard the rest are the same. You need something to hold the masts up: shrouds, stays, and backstays You need to raise the yard = halyards or jeers You need to hold the yard in to the mast = trusses or parrels You need a line to control moving the yard horizontally = braces You need a line to control the yard vertically = lifts You need to hold the corner of the sail down = sheets and tacks You need to haul the corner of the sail up = clew You need to gather the foot of the sail up for furling = buntlines You need to gather the sides of the sail up for furling = leech lines There are variations in style and detail from era to era but the basics stay constant. Fore and aft sails are slightly different: Hoist the sail = halyard or uphaul Lower the sail = downhaul Hold the corner of the sail down = sheet Some stay sails were trapezoidal so they had another line at the lower front corner = tack Regards, Edited February 23, 2015 by popeye2sea HIPEXEC, Mahuna, GLakie and 4 others 7 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIPEXEC Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share #1595 Posted February 23, 2015 Rich, It's not all that difficult. Once you figure out one yard the rest are the same. You need something to hold the masts up: shrouds, stays, and backstays You need to raise the yard = halyards or jeers You need to hold the yard in to the mast = trusses or parrels You need a line to control moving the yard horizontally = braces You need a line to control the yard vertically = lifts You need to hold the corner of the sail down = sheets and tacks You need to haul the corner of the sail up = clew You need to gather the foot of the sail up for furling = buntlines You need to gather the sides of the sail up for furling = leech lines There are variations in style and detail from era to era but the basics stay constant. Fore and aft sails are slightly different: Hoist the sail = halyard or uphaul Lower the sail = downhaul Hold the corner of the sail down = sheet Some stay sails were trapezoidal so they had another line at the lower front corner = tack Regards, Thanks, Henry GLakie 1 Quote Rich Rich USS Constitution by hipexec (Finished build) Virginia Pilot Boat 1805 (gallery - first build) USS Syren (USS Argus) by Hipexec Joshua Slocum's Spray by HIPEXEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIPEXEC Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share #1596 Posted February 25, 2015 Well my rigging is progressing very slowly while I learn "the ropes". However, since all my rigging works...that is, all the rigging can be adjusted, I don't want to tie anything down until it's all rigged. What to do with the "rats nest" I've created? Karleop, rafine, Sjors and 2 others 5 Quote Rich Rich USS Constitution by hipexec (Finished build) Virginia Pilot Boat 1805 (gallery - first build) USS Syren (USS Argus) by Hipexec Joshua Slocum's Spray by HIPEXEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIPEXEC Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share #1597 Posted February 26, 2015 (edited) I took Bill up on his idea to just remove a belaying pin and run the line through the hole then re-insert the pin. It works great! Edited February 26, 2015 by Hipexec GuntherMT, GLakie, Dimitris71 and 3 others 6 Quote Rich Rich USS Constitution by hipexec (Finished build) Virginia Pilot Boat 1805 (gallery - first build) USS Syren (USS Argus) by Hipexec Joshua Slocum's Spray by HIPEXEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIPEXEC Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share #1598 Posted February 26, 2015 If you want great reading about the ships we build, check out Patrick O'Brian's Master and Commander. It was very good. Now, I'm on his second book. GLakie, robnbill, GuntherMT and 1 other 4 Quote Rich Rich USS Constitution by hipexec (Finished build) Virginia Pilot Boat 1805 (gallery - first build) USS Syren (USS Argus) by Hipexec Joshua Slocum's Spray by HIPEXEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLakie Posted February 26, 2015 Share #1599 Posted February 26, 2015 Got the DVD. Great movie! robnbill 1 Quote GEORGE Don't be bound by the limits of what you already know, be unlimited by what you are willing to learn. Member of the Nautical Research Guild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robnbill Posted February 26, 2015 Share #1600 Posted February 26, 2015 Well here is a Connie connection for M&C from IMDB. The French frigate "Acheron" was modeled after the USS Constitution ("Old Ironsides"). The film crew spent quite a bit of time taking pictures and filming the Constitution. The images were then digitized to make the movie. Originally based in Providence, Rhode Island, The HMS Surprise was actually the HMS Rose, a reproduction tall ship built in 1970 at Lunenburg, Nova Scotia by Smith and Rhuland Ltd. The film crew made several alterations to its design to match the 1802 design of the HMS Surprise. The Rose/Surprise has been at the Maritime Museum of San Diego since 2004, but in previous years the HMS Rose was available for tall ship cruises. HIPEXEC, GLakie and popeye2sea 3 Quote Bill Chantilly, VA Its not the size of the ship, but the bore of the cannon! Current Build: Scratch Build Brig Eagle Completed Build Log: USS Constitution - Mamoli Completed Build Gallery: USS Constitution - Mamoli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLakie Posted February 26, 2015 Share #1601 Posted February 26, 2015 Didn't know that. Think I'll screen the movie again and take a few freeze-frame, screen-shots of the Acheron, then look for similarities. HIPEXEC 1 Quote GEORGE Don't be bound by the limits of what you already know, be unlimited by what you are willing to learn. Member of the Nautical Research Guild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIPEXEC Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share #1602 Posted February 26, 2015 The actual ship used for the movie is in San Diego. It looks a lot like the Connie. GLakie and robnbill 2 Quote Rich Rich USS Constitution by hipexec (Finished build) Virginia Pilot Boat 1805 (gallery - first build) USS Syren (USS Argus) by Hipexec Joshua Slocum's Spray by HIPEXEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLakie Posted February 27, 2015 Share #1603 Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) Here's a screenshot of the Acheron's stern, as seen by Russel Crowe looking through his spyglass right after receiving a broadside from her. Edited February 27, 2015 by GLakie HIPEXEC 1 Quote GEORGE Don't be bound by the limits of what you already know, be unlimited by what you are willing to learn. Member of the Nautical Research Guild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robnbill Posted February 27, 2015 Share #1604 Posted February 27, 2015 Oh no........! Not the stern windows debate again. GLakie and HIPEXEC 2 Quote Bill Chantilly, VA Its not the size of the ship, but the bore of the cannon! Current Build: Scratch Build Brig Eagle Completed Build Log: USS Constitution - Mamoli Completed Build Gallery: USS Constitution - Mamoli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLakie Posted February 27, 2015 Share #1605 Posted February 27, 2015 Didn't have any intention of bringing that up any more. A lot of time and effort, that always ends with the same conclusion. Builder's choice. Besides, it's just a movie, and that was the first shot of her. robnbill, HIPEXEC and Sjors 3 Quote GEORGE Don't be bound by the limits of what you already know, be unlimited by what you are willing to learn. Member of the Nautical Research Guild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIPEXEC Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share #1606 Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) Slow and not very sure rigging progress. I now have to buy some very long tweezers and sissors since it's getting very hard to reach into the inner recesses to attach lines to belaying pins. I have drilled some sheaves to run lines through the gunwales. Edited March 3, 2015 by Hipexec TKabutz, GLakie, Sjors and 5 others 8 Quote Rich Rich USS Constitution by hipexec (Finished build) Virginia Pilot Boat 1805 (gallery - first build) USS Syren (USS Argus) by Hipexec Joshua Slocum's Spray by HIPEXEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLakie Posted March 3, 2015 Share #1607 Posted March 3, 2015 Looking good Rich! Micro Mark has just what you're looking for. Long-reach rigging hemo-stats for clamping and the same style for cutting. Cheers HIPEXEC 1 Quote GEORGE Don't be bound by the limits of what you already know, be unlimited by what you are willing to learn. Member of the Nautical Research Guild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahuna Posted March 3, 2015 Share #1608 Posted March 3, 2015 Hi Rich: Was glad to finally see your ship in person, and was very impressed with your work. Keep at it - you'll figure out the best way for your rigging. Frank HIPEXEC and GLakie 2 Quote Frank Completed: Skipjack Kathryn; Dunbrody Sectional Model; Paragon (modified Mayflower) Scratch Build; Planning a Sectional Model of Dunbrody NRG Member Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack12477 Posted March 3, 2015 Share #1609 Posted March 3, 2015 Slow and not very sure rigging progress. I now have to buy some very long tweezers and sissors since it's getting very hard to reach into the inner recesses to attach lines to belaying pins. I have drilled some sheaves to run lines through the gunwales. Rich I use these to get into the small spaces especially the belaying pins http://www.modelexpo-online.com/product.asp?ITEMNO=MS111-A I find the a great help GLakie and HIPEXEC 2 Quote Jack "No one is as smart as all of us" - Is ón cheann a thagann an cheird The craft comes from the head --------------------------------------------- Current build: US Constellation Non-ship builds: USCG UH-65A Dolphin M16 Multi-gun motor carriage diorama M4A3 Sherman Tanks dioramas 1936-1939 Mercedes Benz 540K 1934 Rolls-Royce Phantom II JSDF Light Armor Vehicle Figures: The Last Bridge: Raider Reaper Edge of Universe: Ianis The Last Bridge: Vadim with cart Completed build log(s): 18th Century Longboat , Marie Jeanne, Willie L Bennett 1888 50 ft Gaff-rigged Ice Yacht Scratch Build The Sullivans (DD 537) Liberty Ship SS John W Brown USS England (DE 635), Artesania Latina Titanic Lifeboat Gallery: Swift , Armed Virginia Sloop, Santisima Trinidad Captain's Launch , 18th Century Longboat , Marie Jeanne Other: Rhinebeck Aerodrome Tour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIPEXEC Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share #1610 Posted March 3, 2015 Jack, Frank, Geoff and all of you....thanks for the support & help. GLakie and Aussie048 2 Quote Rich Rich USS Constitution by hipexec (Finished build) Virginia Pilot Boat 1805 (gallery - first build) USS Syren (USS Argus) by Hipexec Joshua Slocum's Spray by HIPEXEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIPEXEC Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share #1611 Posted March 3, 2015 Now that I've rigged the two foresails (jibs) according to Constructo's plans....I'm puzzled why they hang like staysails instead of being run up and down on jib stays? How are the actual jibs on the real Constitution set? Quote Rich Rich USS Constitution by hipexec (Finished build) Virginia Pilot Boat 1805 (gallery - first build) USS Syren (USS Argus) by Hipexec Joshua Slocum's Spray by HIPEXEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLakie Posted March 3, 2015 Share #1612 Posted March 3, 2015 The jib sails are fastened to the stays with hanks or loops through the edge of the sail so they can slide up and down the stay. I can't explain it as well as a picture can. Jack12477 and HIPEXEC 2 Quote GEORGE Don't be bound by the limits of what you already know, be unlimited by what you are willing to learn. Member of the Nautical Research Guild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIPEXEC Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share #1613 Posted March 4, 2015 That's what I figured. I wonder why Constructo eliminated the jib stays? I'll probably retrofit jib stays once I can figure out how to do it easily. GuntherMT and GLakie 2 Quote Rich Rich USS Constitution by hipexec (Finished build) Virginia Pilot Boat 1805 (gallery - first build) USS Syren (USS Argus) by Hipexec Joshua Slocum's Spray by HIPEXEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIPEXEC Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share #1614 Posted March 4, 2015 Here I'm practicing making a splice to a stay. The rigging plan calls for most braces to be rigged with a block and a line spliced to a shroud. dgbot, Dimitris71, GLakie and 2 others 5 Quote Rich Rich USS Constitution by hipexec (Finished build) Virginia Pilot Boat 1805 (gallery - first build) USS Syren (USS Argus) by Hipexec Joshua Slocum's Spray by HIPEXEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted March 4, 2015 Share #1615 Posted March 4, 2015 Here I'm practicing making a splice to a stay. The rigging plan calls for most braces to be rigged with a block and a line spliced to a shroud. The braces were not spliced to the stays. They were seized. There is a difference. Splicing involves tucking individual strands of the rope under and through the strands of the stay, while seizing involved lashing an eye in the end of the brace to the stay. Each gives a much different appearance to the finished work. HIPEXEC, GLakie and lambsbk 3 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIPEXEC Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share #1616 Posted March 4, 2015 Seizing it is! Thanks, Henry GLakie 1 Quote Rich Rich USS Constitution by hipexec (Finished build) Virginia Pilot Boat 1805 (gallery - first build) USS Syren (USS Argus) by Hipexec Joshua Slocum's Spray by HIPEXEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted March 4, 2015 Share #1617 Posted March 4, 2015 Was not sure if my saying that would be taken as a bit off-putting. Sometimes it is hard to know if one is crossing a line or not. But it really makes a big difference in appearance. GLakie 1 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIPEXEC Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share #1618 Posted March 4, 2015 The jib sails are fastened to the stays with hanks or loops through the edge of the sail so they can slide up and down the stay. I can't explain it as well as a picture can. IMG_0167.JPG IMG_0169.JPG These are great plans...I shall refer to them the rest of the rigging progress. Thanks GLakie 1 Quote Rich Rich USS Constitution by hipexec (Finished build) Virginia Pilot Boat 1805 (gallery - first build) USS Syren (USS Argus) by Hipexec Joshua Slocum's Spray by HIPEXEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIPEXEC Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share #1619 Posted March 4, 2015 I'm stopping rigging the square sails while I rectify the Constructo omission of not telling me I needed jibstays. I should have known better since I sailed for several decades on modern fore & aft rigged boats. They all had jibstays. I placed a rubber absorbent mat under my work area to "catch" fallen tiny hanks. I dropped most of them and it caught all but one. Goodness knows where all these little dropped parts disappear to. Now that the brass hanks are on the jibs...I shall attempt to install jibstays. rafine, Dimitris71, Mahuna and 7 others 10 Quote Rich Rich USS Constitution by hipexec (Finished build) Virginia Pilot Boat 1805 (gallery - first build) USS Syren (USS Argus) by Hipexec Joshua Slocum's Spray by HIPEXEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLakie Posted March 4, 2015 Share #1620 Posted March 4, 2015 These are great plans...I shall refer to them the rest of the rigging progress. Thanks It's not a problem for me Rich, but because of size and copyright issues I couldn't put the entire thing up. Those are some good looking sails. Jack12477 and HIPEXEC 2 Quote GEORGE Don't be bound by the limits of what you already know, be unlimited by what you are willing to learn. Member of the Nautical Research Guild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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